Hello, i am a real Christian

[Eilonnwy]

This post stinks of No True Scotsman.

Not really. Most Christians see things like i do. The number of Christians who follows the worse aspects of religion is actually very small.

I think most Christians would have a bone to pick with you.

Seriously, you come on this board and the first thing you say is that all the theists here are not "true" Christians because they don't adhere to what you think. Now, the majority of our theists are Christian, and I happen to like some of them. So even though I'm not Christian, I'm personally ticked off that you would make sweeping generalizations about a group of people you don't really know. If they say they're Christian, then that's what they are. You don't get to tell people they're not because they don't think like you. So yeah, no true Scotsman applies here.

And for another thing, you make another hasty generalization of atheists that we essentially are confused by belief so we reject it. That's absurd to the highest degree. Atheists have one thing in common, we lack belief in God. How we arrive at that conclusion is different for everyone. However, in my experience, atheists tend to be people who arrive at their lack of faith through careful study and consideration of the evidence, or more appropriately, lack of evidence.

So if you want to fit in here, you should stop generalizing vast groups of people and maybe show some respect to your fellow Christians here.

You wouldn't want us coming into your house telling you why you believe/don't believe something and that you're not really who you say you are because you don't think like us.

[Atheist_named_Christian]

By rejecting the supernatural events in the Old Testament but accepting the supernatural events in the New Testament, you are indeed cherry picking.

I don't happen to know any theist who really believes in the bullshit written in the old testament (bullshit is an understatement, I guess). And off course it is cherry picking but otherwise I would be really scared about some of my friends. But no reason to not point this out, of course.

[Minimalist]

I don't happen to know any theist who really believes in the bullshit written in the old testament

I do. And they would loudly tell TC that he is NOT a TRUE XTIAN.

They might even throw rocks.

[Atheist_named_Christian]

I do. And they would loudly tell TC that he is NOT a TRUE XTIAN.

They might even throw rocks.

Sure - they do exist. And even I tell people they are not real Christians if they just believe the parts they happen to like anyways.

And the "true Christians" are not only throwing rocks - they are doing things much worse.

[Eilonnwy]

I don't happen to know any theist who really believes in the bullshit written in the old testament

I do. And they would loudly tell TC that he is NOT a TRUE XTIAN.

They might even throw rocks.

Indeed, the 40% to 50% of Christians who accept Creationism in the US and are pushing it in our schools are just a figment of our imagination.

[True Christian]

What's more religion has undeniably done some good in the world. It has united nations, given people a set of moral values that are good for the well-being of society. For hundreds of years most of the education and medicine was practiced by the Church. Finally most organizations that help the poor sick or homeless are originally Christian.

Hi TC,

I don't want to comment on your whole text - just this last paragraph. I honestly think that you are terribly wrong here. IMO religion (especially Christians) has blocked and slowed the development of our society and has retarded us by at least 1500 years ("The dark ages"). And the church has always contributed in hindering education (it still does - especially in some parts of the US) and had even abolished reasonable medical practice for decades.
Your last sentence is however correct, I guess. But have you ever thought about the fact, that actually most people consider themselves "Christian"? Do you really think they wouldn't help the poor, homeless etc. if they were atheists? The reason these organizations are considered christian because at the time they were founded merely everybody was forced to call him/herself "Christian" (not in the sense I am called Christian ).

Personally, I also have to disagree with you on the point that atheists are simply disillusioned christians (or other believers). I have been raised in a relatively catholic family but my parents were also thoughtful enough to teach me logic, reason etc. I recently came to the conclusion, that I never really believed in god - not because I am disillusioned by religion (I am sometimes disillusioned by people, however). I know several atheists (or de-facto-atheists) who made very similar experiences in their lives.

If I look around me, I have to admit that I am living a better live than most people. I agree that not having anything to believe in (as a god etc.) makes a lot of things senseless - but how could this be a reason to believe in some random spook in the skies?


(english is not my mother tongue - so please excuse any weird use of language)

Atheists base their reasoning on fact, and so do i. It is a fact that the fast majority of education, and not only religious education (especially philosophy, history or languages) was dispensed by the monasteries.
Yes, in many parts of the world some religions hinder education, but i personally went to a Christian school and got the same education as anyone else, and maybe even better. Exceptions exist everywhere.

About helping the poor and homeless, many churches, today, have programs to help. This is a fact observable every day, by everyone, and that has always existed.
And no i honestly do not believe (and i will get a lot of flame for this) that atheists are as giving as theists simply because the code of conduct that theists use considers giving to others a real virtue that should be encouraged. And yes this is partly done because of a fear of God, but if it helps the world become a better place...

[Paul the Human]

And no i honestly do not believe (and i will get a lot of flame for this) that atheists are as giving as theists simply because the code of conduct that theists use considers giving to others a real virtue that should be encouraged. And yes this is partly done because of a fear of God, but if it helps the world become a better place...

You have no idea what you are talking about. Some of the most giving people I know are atheists. Some of them are Christians. Some of them are neither of those things. You need to learn to stop generalizing so broadly and offensively. For reals.

[Minimalist]

About helping the poor and homeless, many churches, today, have programs to help.

Hmmm. I was born catholic (and I wasn't molested...and I'm a bit insulted by that...but I digress.) I seem to recall them collecting money for the "poor" for the "missions", for the "elderly priests and nuns," for "building funds" not to mention running Bingo games and Las Vegas Nights and selling raffle tickets.

In short, they always had their hands out for something. It seems to me that they were spending MY money and not their own. Now that I am a fully grown cynic I sort of wonder where all that money ended up.

[True Christian]

Alright i guess i did not explain myself well enough. What i meant by saying atheists are disillusioned is that they have simply given up altogether on religion because they dont see evidence for it. However there is evidence in the form of the Gospels, the teachings of Jesus.
Accepting the Gospels is a choice, but i find that many atheists only base their hatred of religion on what its excesses have done, and refuse to see the good that has come out of it because it their minds, no matter what, they start with the presumption that religion is bad. So no matter what anyone say they will always read with this presumption.

Finally i am NOT cherry picking. Christianity is based on the Christ, hence the name. I reject the Old Testament altogether and accept the Gospels altogether. This is not cherry picking.

And to clarify on me being a "true christian". By that i mean that i base my faith on the Christ, hence the Gospels, and not the Old Testament.

[Atheist_named_Christian]

Atheists base their reasoning on fact, and so do i. It is a fact that the fast majority of education, and not only religious education (especially philosophy, history or languages) was dispensed by the monasteries.
Yes, in many parts of the world some religions hinder education, but i personally went to a Christian school and got the same education as anyone else, and maybe even better. Exceptions exist everywhere.

About helping the poor and homeless, many churches, today, have programs to help. This is a fact observable every day, by everyone, and that has always existed.
And no i honestly do not believe (and i will get a lot of flame for this) that atheists are as giving as theists simply because the code of conduct that theists use considers giving to others a real virtue that should be encouraged. And yes this is partly done because of a fear of God, but if it helps the world become a better place...

That almost makes sense to me - or at least I can see how one can come to this point of view. But how, for example, do you know, that you got better education and not the others? I also did not say, that NO education was provided by monasteries but that education would have been better and available to a broader range of people without the dark ages.

About your last point: This is actually a reason (if valid) why people should believe in an angry god - but it is definitely NO reason for the existence of god. It is always very dangerous to make people believe unreasonable things just because a self-appointed elite considers it good for everyone. So in a way, I am less pessimistic than you are - I 'believe' that telling people the truth is a good thing that will finally help anyone living on this planet. Censorship and make-believe are two things I strongly decline.


So my conclusion is: You do NOT believe in the existence of god but you think that most people should believe it exists - that is called hypocrisy. You are an Atheist but pro-theist - maybe you are a "Christian Atheists".