Hello all,

I have browsed a bit through these forums, and i have noticed that the view of theists as a whole is terribly arbitrary. Some of the atheists here say that they are called by religious people "immoral", or even "sinful" and "evil".

But most atheists have the exact same kind of description of theists, considering them as stupid, uneducated, and feeling superior to everyone else. That is simply not accurate.

Here is my set of beliefs. This set of beliefs is shared by the vast majority of Christians. You will see that we are not as crazy as you seem to believe:

I believe that the vast majority of the Old Testament is non-factual. I believe fully in evolution, even though i think God intended our evolution from apes, in such a way as to do it according to the rules of nature. I do believe for example in Moses and the flee from Egypt, as a historical event and not with the magic bread, crossing of the red sea or the cloud of ash that showed them the way. However Noah's Ark, Adam and Eve, the man who lived 3 days inside of a whale, are all stories that could be compared with mythologies like the Greek one.

But i am a real christian in that i believe, according to the tales of the Gospels, that Jesus is the Son of God, performed miracles, and was resurrected. He had a message of peace and understanding for all of mankind, and unlike the tales of the Old Testament, in the teachings of Jesus no one is beyond redemption.

I do not condemn non-believers or believers in other religions to an eternity in Hell, i just think they havnt had the luck i had, which is to see the beautiful message of the Christ.

I see atheists as people who are disillusioned view of religion and who do not know what or who to believe, so they just reject God altogether. I can understand easily how people can be disgusted by religion. Terrorism, discrimination, pedophilia. But all of those wrongs that religion has done...are not exclusive to religion, far from it. Most of the time, "religious" genocides have for goal to find a scapegoat to appease the population, nothing more.

What's more religion has undeniably done some good in the world. It has united nations, given people a set of moral values that are good for the well-being of society. For hundreds of years most of the education and medicine was practiced by the Church. Finally most organizations that help the poor sick or homeless are originally Christian.

I am not here to convert you all, just to remind you that religion is not as harmful as you seem to think.

Quote:I am not here to convert you all, just to remind you that religion is not as harmful as you seem to think.

Hello, TC.




You do have a bit of a burden to overcome with that last bit.

This post stinks of No True Scotsman.

Quote: I believe that the vast majority of the Old Testament is non-factual.

Cherry picking much?

(April 26, 2010 at 3:13 pm)Minimalist Wrote:

Quote:I am not here to convert you all, just to remind you that religion is not as harmful as you seem to think.

Hello, TC.




You do have a bit of a burden to overcome with that last bit.

Yes that is one excess of religion. However there has been much more deaths in the past in the name of religion, i do not deny that. But there has been much more good done in the name of religion than bad.

What's more, terrorist are a VERY small percentage of theists ! how many attacks have been done in the name of Islam in Western countries in the past years ? 10 ? 20 ? Compared to tens of millions of muslims in the world, this is NOTHING.

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(April 26, 2010 at 3:21 pm)Shinylight Wrote:

Quote: I believe that the vast majority of the Old Testament is non-factual.

Cherry picking much?

It is not cherry picking, you are trying to categorize me into a specific mindset that you are used to see. I believe that the Old Testament is the embellishment of the story of a people. I do not believe in ANYTHING supernatural that happened in the Old Testament. I am not cherry picking.

Quote:i do not deny that.

I like you already. At least you are honest.


As Chris Hitchens has pointed out, it is the tolerance of the "moderates" which allows the fanatics to function.

(April 26, 2010 at 3:21 pm)Eilonnwy Wrote: This post stinks of No True Scotsman.

Not really. Most Christians see things like i do. The number of Christians who follows the worse aspects of religion is actually very small.

By rejecting the supernatural events in the Old Testament but accepting the supernatural events in the New Testament, you are indeed cherry picking.

(April 26, 2010 at 3:06 pm)True Christian Wrote: What's more religion has undeniably done some good in the world. It has united nations, given people a set of moral values that are good for the well-being of society. For hundreds of years most of the education and medicine was practiced by the Church. Finally most organizations that help the poor sick or homeless are originally Christian.

Hi TC,

I don't want to comment on your whole text - just this last paragraph. I honestly think that you are terribly wrong here. IMO religion (especially Christians) has blocked and slowed the development of our society and has retarded us by at least 1500 years ("The dark ages"). And the church has always contributed in hindering education (it still does - especially in some parts of the US) and had even abolished reasonable medical practice for decades.
Your last sentence is however correct, I guess. But have you ever thought about the fact, that actually most people consider themselves "Christian"? Do you really think they wouldn't help the poor, homeless etc. if they were atheists? The reason these organizations are considered christian because at the time they were founded merely everybody was forced to call him/herself "Christian" (not in the sense I am called Christian ).

Personally, I also have to disagree with you on the point that atheists are simply disillusioned christians (or other believers). I have been raised in a relatively catholic family but my parents were also thoughtful enough to teach me logic, reason etc. I recently came to the conclusion, that I never really believed in god - not because I am disillusioned by religion (I am sometimes disillusioned by people, however). I know several atheists (or de-facto-atheists) who made very similar experiences in their lives. If I look around me, it seems I am living a better life than most people around me - or better say, I wouldn't want to change with anyone right now.
I agree that not having anything to believe in (as a god etc.) makes a lot of things senseless - but how could this be a reason to believe in some random spook in the skies?


(english is not my mother tongue - so please excuse any use of weird language)

(EDIT: I type this up before I realized there had been other replies, so some of what I say has already been said. But here it is, nonetheless.)

(April 26, 2010 at 3:06 pm)True Christian Wrote: Hello all

Hi, True Christian… and welcome.

(April 26, 2010 at 3:06 pm)True Christian Wrote: I believe that the vast majority of the Old Testament is non-factual. I believe fully in evolution, even though i think God intended our evolution from apes, in such a way as to do it according to the rules of nature. I do believe for example in Moses and the flee from Egypt, as a historical event and not with the magic bread, crossing of the red sea or the cloud of ash that showed them the way. However Noah's Ark, Adam and Eve, the man who lived 3 days inside of a whale, are all stories that could be compared with mythologies like the Greek one.

But i am a real christian in that i believe, according to the tales of the Gospels, that Jesus is the Son of God, performed miracles, and was resurrected. He had a message of peace and understanding for all of mankind, and unlike the tales of the Old Testament, in the teachings of Jesus no one is beyond redemption.

That does, indeed, sound like the things believed by most Christians I have spoken with. Just like them, you are guilty of picking and choosing which thing to believe and which things to dismiss in the gospel of your own religion. Moses couldn’t possibly have ‘parted the red sea’, but Jesus was surely the miracle performing son of god. Why do you think one is more believable than the other?

(April 26, 2010 at 3:06 pm)True Christian Wrote: I do not condemn non-believers or believers in other religions to an eternity in Hell, i just think they havnt had the luck i had, which is to see the beautiful message of the Christ.

That’s nice of you. Your god, on the other hand, is not so understanding. Lucky for me, it’s just a fairytale/horror story.

(April 26, 2010 at 3:06 pm)True Christian Wrote: I see atheists as people who are disillusioned view of religion and who do not know what or who to believe, so they just reject God altogether. I can understand easily how people can be disgusted by religion. Terrorism, discrimination, pedophilia. But all of those wrongs that religion has done...are not exclusive to religion, far from it. Most of the time, "religious" genocides have for goal to find a scapegoat to appease the population, nothing more.

Really? Is that how ‘you see atheists’? If so, you haven’t spoken with many of them. I’d say most of us do not believe that god(s) exist, because we have never been given a rational reason to. We have been given uncountable reasons not to, though. We find the most likely and most logical conclusion to be inescapable… even if you are apologetic about all of the atrocities that organized religion has committed in the name it god.

(April 26, 2010 at 3:06 pm)True Christian Wrote: What's more religion has undeniably done some good in the world. It has united nations, given people a set of moral values that are good for the well-being of society. For hundreds of years most of the education and medicine was practiced by the Church. Finally most organizations that help the poor sick or homeless are originally Christian.

No one can say that ‘religion has never done anything good’, but that does not make god real. It also doesn’t erase all of the atrocities committed by religion throughout history and today.

(April 26, 2010 at 3:06 pm)True Christian Wrote: I am not here to convert you all, just to remind you that religion is not as harmful as you seem to think.

*points to the picture that Min posted above*