Why the fine tuning argument is a pile of shit

[robvalue]

I'd call it barely tuned.

Why exactly does god have to live within these universal constants? Who set up that framework? They can't decide whether god made the rules or turned up one day constrained by them...

If he set up the framework in the first place, so that the best he could do is that a negligible number of planets could support life for a negligible amount of time, he's a fucking lame ass god.

Let's just say I'm god. I make the whole fucking thing, whatever I make, inhabitable! Wow, that was really hard, right? And I allow people to actually travel easily around in it, I don't glue them to a tiny rock. And... I could go on. Anyone could do a better job than this idiot. They must have a real low opinion of him, if they think this was planned.

I think we mean similar things. God should not be constrained in his creation to a framework where fine tuning is necessary to make a small part of it viabls, that's also your point, right? He would set up a framework where you can easily have a habitable world which doesn't need tweaking just so it doesn't desintegrate in a fiery explosion (which ours would if you e.g raise the up quark mass a bit just to name one catastrophic possibility)

Yeah you're right, I think we are saying the same thing!

[dyresand]

It's simple if the fine tuning argument were true there would be more life in the universe instead of earth.
Not saying were the only people or things out there but there more than likely is some other life being bacteria or
some form of sentient life.

Erm What?

I was trying to say life would be common if fine tuning was a thing

[Whateverist]

I wonder how long it will be before religious people just decouple from the whole 'creator of everything' non-sense. Will it come before or after they let go of 'after life'.

[Longhorn]

The argument is pretty self defeating.

'It's an incredible coincidence that this universe can sustain life!'

'Ummm....exactly?'

[Whateverist]

The argument is pretty self defeating.

'It's an incredible coincidence that this universe can sustain life!'

'Ummm....exactly?'

[redacted]

[Longhorn]

I wonder how long it will be before religious people just decouple from the whole 'creator of everything' non-sense. Will it come before or after they let go of 'after life'.

Before. Fear of death is probably the greatest driving force of religion. In the presence of scene it can let go of the fear of the unknown, but fear of death and losing loved ones prevails.

[ReptilianPeon]

There's a book on this very subject titled: "The Fallacy of Fine Tuning". I don't see how people can assume our universe is fine tuned given that we haven't observed any other universes. We don't know if life would be possible in another universe or even which constants change between universes.

Life on the Earth evolved for this universe and I would put money on life in other universes thinking that life could not exist in our universe. I am sure there is life as we don't know it out there. I would also put money on intelligent life on another planet in our own universe thinking their planet was perfectly designed for them. Perhaps there is life that is not Carbon based. There was a book exploring the notion of non-Carbon based life but I can't remember the title.

[Alex K]

There's a book on this very subject titled: "The Fallacy of Fine Tuning". I don't see how people can assume our universe is fine tuned given that we haven't observed any other universes. We don't know if life would be possible in another universe or even which constants change between universes.

But you can look at the constants in our current laws of nature and observe that changing some of them just a little would result in a quite structureless universe.

[vixene]

Have to say I've never heard this argument for religion before.

[Iroscato]

Have to say I've never heard this argument for religion before.

It's quite a common fallacy, often said by misty-eyed theists who say it whilst literally standing atop the ground which is full of remains of the millions of species which evolved, lived and died out in such a way that we managd to blag our way to planetary dominance.