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RE: Thoughts on origins
August 10, 2015 at 1:01 pm
One more I don't know here. Best guess is that the universe began about 13.8 billion years ago plus or minus about 52 million years. That's one hell of a long time ago. Homo Sapiens have only been around less than two million years. Add to that, that the creation of the universe is a singularity and my brain scrambles. We don't know. We just have more and less probable theories.
I do know, however that it did not happen in the manner described in Genesis, the Metamorphoses, or the Pueblo Indian creation myths. All of those contradict what we do know.
If there is a god, I want to believe that there is a god. If there is not a god, I want to believe that there is no god.
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RE: Thoughts on origins
August 10, 2015 at 1:05 pm
(August 10, 2015 at 12:38 pm)pgrimes15 Wrote: I personally don't buy the big bang theory, believing it to be based on a misinterpretation of the redshift. There are a number of alternative cosmologies that have some merit. If I had to put money on something, I would say that the universe is infinite and eternal, or at least that the big bang figure of 14 billion years barely scratches the surface of what truely ancient means (if a human can put a figure to it we haven't understood it). On the other hand, the concepts of infinity and/or eternal are so mindbogglingly incomprehensible that we might is well say "don't know".
One thing that never enters my musings on the subject are magic sky daddys.
Grimesy
Can you give an example of a different interpretation of the red shift that works nearly as well?
The fool hath said in his heart, There is a God. They are corrupt, they have done abominable works, there is none that doeth good.
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RE: Thoughts on origins
August 10, 2015 at 1:30 pm
(August 10, 2015 at 1:05 pm)Alex K Wrote: (August 10, 2015 at 12:38 pm)pgrimes15 Wrote: I personally don't buy the big bang theory, believing it to be based on a misinterpretation of the redshift. There are a number of alternative cosmologies that have some merit. If I had to put money on something, I would say that the universe is infinite and eternal, or at least that the big bang figure of 14 billion years barely scratches the surface of what truely ancient means (if a human can put a figure to it we haven't understood it). On the other hand, the concepts of infinity and/or eternal are so mindbogglingly incomprehensible that we might is well say "don't know".
One thing that never enters my musings on the subject are magic sky daddys.
Grimesy
Can you give an example of a different interpretation of the red shift that works nearly as well?
Red shift as a indicator of distance rather than speed of recession.
Religion is regarded by the common people as true, by the wise as false, and by the rulers as useful. — Edward Gibbon
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RE: Thoughts on origins
August 10, 2015 at 1:43 pm
Another I don't know. We may come close to knowing (have good theories), but completely knowing? I have large (bull size testicle) doubts.
Being told you're delusional does not necessarily mean you're mental.
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RE: Thoughts on origins
August 10, 2015 at 1:48 pm
(This post was last modified: August 10, 2015 at 1:50 pm by Alex K.)
(August 10, 2015 at 1:30 pm)pgrimes15 Wrote: (August 10, 2015 at 1:05 pm)Alex K Wrote: Can you give an example of a different interpretation of the red shift that works nearly as well?
Red shift as a indicator of distance rather than speed of recession.
Ok so the crucial point is, how does this interpretation fit in an actual working theory framework which explains the data?
Btw: in the standard cosmology, red shift is *NOT* an indicator for speed of recession, so you might want to work on your understanding there.
The fool hath said in his heart, There is a God. They are corrupt, they have done abominable works, there is none that doeth good.
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RE: Thoughts on origins
August 10, 2015 at 2:21 pm
I just assume the big bang.
I have no hypotheses or theories of my own nor can I cite facts from existing ones.
My belief in it is just about as serious as my belief in religions.
Really just following another crowd just like theists do.
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RE: Thoughts on origins
August 10, 2015 at 2:25 pm
Ask us again in 200 years. Considering the extraordinary leaps science has taken in unlocking cosmic secrets in the last 200, I'd say that's a comfortable margin to unlock petty much whatever is left.
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RE: Thoughts on origins
August 10, 2015 at 2:28 pm
(August 10, 2015 at 1:48 pm)Alex K Wrote: (August 10, 2015 at 1:30 pm)pgrimes15 Wrote: Red shift as a indicator of distance rather than speed of recession.
Ok so the crucial point is, how does this interpretation fit in an actual working theory framework which explains the data?
Btw: in the standard cosmology, red shift is *NOT* an indicator for speed of recession, so you might want to work on your understanding there.
Ok. Was just answering the OP.
Religion is regarded by the common people as true, by the wise as false, and by the rulers as useful. — Edward Gibbon
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RE: Thoughts on origins
August 10, 2015 at 3:34 pm
Hm, so you reject the big bang picture because there are more plausible alternatives, but you refuse to name them?
The fool hath said in his heart, There is a God. They are corrupt, they have done abominable works, there is none that doeth good.
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RE: Thoughts on origins
August 10, 2015 at 4:11 pm
I am not convinced that the universe had an origin. ( As AlexK points out, the current model of a big bang does not take us back all the way to a beginning, so you cannot use that to 'prove' an origin, even if it is exactly correct as far as it goes.) If the universe did have an origin, I do not know what it was. And neither does anyone else. But I do know that saying "god did it" is useless twaddle that explains nothing.
One of the speculative ideas that I rather like is the idea that in the future, everything will be drawn back together by gravity and then will all come crashing together, and ricochet off in all directions. Perhaps that is what happened in the past, and is the cause of the 'big bang.' Of course, this is speculative, and may well be false. The simple fact is, we do not know what will happen in the future either. (I seem to recall reading something that the current ideas are suggesting that this particular speculative idea is wrong, but that will only be known one way or another after a few more things are figured out. AlexK can tell us what the latest is on such ideas, if he wishes.)
Additionally (and stop reading AlexK!),
"A wise man ... proportions his belief to the evidence."
— David Hume, An Enquiry Concerning Human Understanding, Section X, Part I.
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