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DEBUNKING THE CONSPIRACY THEORY
#91
RE: DEBUNKING THE CONSPIRACY THEORY
Why couldn't the disciples have made up the whole story about Jesus' resurrection? Dr. Peter Kreeft offers seven reasons why:

(1) Blaise Pascal gives a simple, psychologically sound proof for why this is unthinkable:

"The apostles were either deceived or deceivers. Either supposition is difficult, for it is not possible to imagine that a man has risen from the dead. While Jesus was with them, he could sustain them; but afterwards, if he did not appear to them, who did make them act? The hypothesis that the Apostles were knaves is quite absurd. Follow it out to the end, and imagine these twelve men meeting after Jesus' death and conspiring to say that he has risen from the dead. This means attacking all the powers that be. The human heart is singularly susceptible to fickleness, to change, to promises, to bribery. One of them had only to deny his story under these inducements, or still more because of possible imprisonment, tortures and death, and they would all have been lost. Follow that out." (Pensees, 322)

The "cruncher" in this argument is the historical fact that no one, weak or strong, saint or sinner, Christian or heretic, ever confessed, freely or under pressure, bribe or even torture, that the whole story of the resurrection was a fake, a lie, a deliberate deception. Even when people broke under torture, denied Christ, and worshiped Caesar, they never let that cat out of the bag, never revealed that the resurrection was their conspiracy. For that cat was never in the bag. No Christians believed the resurrection was a conspiracy; if they had, they wouldn't have become Christians.

(2) If they made up the story, they were the most creative, clever, intelligent fantasists in history, far surpassing Shakespeare, or Dante, or Tolkien. Fisherman's "fish stories" are never that elaborate, that convincing, that life-changing, and that enduring.

(3) The disciples' character argues strongly against such a conspiracy on the part of all of them, with no dissenters. They were simple, honest, common peasants, not cunning, conniving liars. (They weren't even lawyers!) Their sincerity is proved by their words and deeds. They preached a resurrected Christ and they lived a resurrected Christ. They willingly died for their "conspiracy." Nothing proves sincerity like martyrdom. The change in their lives from fear to faith, despair to confidence, confusion to certitude, runaway cowardice to steadfast boldness under threat and persecution, not only proves their sincerity but testifies to some powerful cause of it. Can a lie cause such a transformation? Are truth and goodness such enemies that the greatest good in history—sanctity—has come from the greatest lie?

Use your imagination and sense of perspective here. Imagine twelve poor, fearful, stupid (read the Gospels!) peasants changing the hard-nosed Roman world with a lie. And not an easily digested, attractive lie either. St. Thomas Aquinas says:

"In the midst of the tyranny of the persecutors, an innumerable throng of people, both simple and learned, flocked to the Christian faith. In this faith there are truths proclaimed that surpass every human intellect; the pleasures of the flesh are curbed; it is taught that the things of the world should be spurned. Now, for the minds of mortal men to assent to these things is the greatest of miracles....This wonderful conversion of the world to the Christian faith is the clearest witness....For it would be truly more wonderful than all signs if the world had been led by simple and humble men to believe such lofty truths, to accomplish such difficult actions, and to have such high hopes." (Summa Contra Gentiles, I, 6)

(4) There could be no possible motive for such a lie. Lies are always told for some selfish advantage. What advantage did the "conspirators" derive from their "lie" ? They were hated, scorned, persecuted, excommunicated, imprisoned, tortured, exiled, crucified, boiled alive, roasted, beheaded, disemboweled and fed to lions—hardly a catalog of perks!

(5) If the resurrection was a lie, the Jews would have produced the corpse and nipped this feared superstition in the bud. All they had to do was go to the tomb and get it. The Roman soldiers and their leaders were on their side, not the Christians'. And if the Jews couldn't get the body because the disciples stole it, how did they do that? The arguments against the swoon theory hold here too: unarmed peasants could not have overpowered Roman soldiers or rolled away a great stone while they slept on duty.

(6) The disciples could not have gotten away with proclaiming the resurrection in Jerusalem-same time, same place, full of eyewitnesses—if it had been a lie. William Lane Craig says,

"The Gospels were written in such a temporal and geographical proximity to the events they record that it would have been almost impossible to fabricate events....The fact that the disciples were able to proclaim the resurrection in Jerusalem in the face of their enemies a few weeks after the crucifixion shows that what they proclaimed was true, for they could never have proclaimed the resurrection (and been believed) under such circumstances had it not occurred."  (Knowing the Truth About the Resurrection, chapter 6)

(7) If there had been a conspiracy, it would certainly have been unearthed by the disciples' adversaries, who had both the interest and the power to expose any fraud. Common experience shows that such intrigues are inevitably exposed (Craig, ibid).

In conclusion, if the resurrection was a concocted, conspired lie, it violates all known historical and psychological laws of lying. Such a lie is, then, as unscientific, unrepeatable, unique, and untestable as the resurrection itself. But unlike the resurrection, it is also contradicted by things we do know (the above points).
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#92
RE: DEBUNKING THE CONSPIRACY THEORY
(August 14, 2015 at 4:45 am)Neimenovic Wrote: Actually, this is the same thread all over again.
In the end, it can be broken down to:

'BBBBBUT THE TOMB WAS EMPTY!!!!1!1!1 WHAT'S YOUR THEORY HUH?!?!?!!'

All the objections to this line of thinking notwithstanding. I guess they're not in his scenario.

Not really, Nemo.

There are FIVE facts that must be accounted for. The empty tomb is only one of them.

Swoon and Conspiracy are two attempts at providing alternate explanations.

So, what's your theory, huh?!?!?!?
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#93
RE: DEBUNKING THE CONSPIRACY THEORY
Duplicate
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#94
RE: DEBUNKING THE CONSPIRACY THEORY
(August 14, 2015 at 7:40 am)Randy Carson Wrote: [...]

(2) If they made up the story, they were the most creative, clever, intelligent fantasists in history, far surpassing Shakespeare, or Dante, or Tolkien. Fisherman's "fish stories" are never that elaborate, that convincing, that life-changing, and that enduring.
[...]
lol... F-ing what? 
NT story is a derivative and primitive pile of crap. There's nothing "intelligent" or even "clever" about it, from the storytelling point of view. Not to mention that "gospels" like those were penny a dozen.
"The fact that a believer is happier than a skeptic is no more to the point than the fact that a drunken man is happier than a sober one." - George Bernard Shaw
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#95
RE: DEBUNKING THE CONSPIRACY THEORY
Hey look! More copying of other people's work!
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#96
RE: DEBUNKING THE CONSPIRACY THEORY
(August 14, 2015 at 7:44 am)Randy Carson Wrote:
(August 14, 2015 at 4:45 am)Neimenovic Wrote: Actually, this is the same thread all over again.
In the end, it can be broken down to:

'BBBBBUT THE TOMB WAS EMPTY!!!!1!1!1 WHAT'S YOUR THEORY HUH?!?!?!!'

All the objections to this line of thinking notwithstanding. I guess they're not in his scenario.

Not really, Nemo.

There are FIVE facts that must be accounted for. The empty tomb is only one of them.

Swoon and Conspiracy are two attempts at providing alternate explanations.

So, what's your theory, huh?!?!?!?

Bravo! Do you even need me for this?

I'm starting to get really concerned Randy. Seriously. You keep repeating the same two things over and over ad nauseum, despite the fact that the flaw in your thinking has been pointed out to you several times by multiple people. Is it that you need a specific response to carry on with your pre written theatrics, or are you mentally incapable of acknowledging the problem with your argument?

Either way I honestly advise anyone who's attempting to have a conversation with Randy to skim through the last several pages of his previous thread, and then abandon the endeavor. Deeply disappointing is an understatement.
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#97
RE: DEBUNKING THE CONSPIRACY THEORY
(August 14, 2015 at 8:38 am)Neimenovic Wrote: Hey look! More copying of other people's work!

Were you expecting something else? Big Grin
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#98
RE: DEBUNKING THE CONSPIRACY THEORY
(August 14, 2015 at 8:44 am)LastPoet Wrote:
(August 14, 2015 at 8:38 am)Neimenovic Wrote: Hey look! More copying of other people's work!

Were you expecting something else? Big Grin

Incurable optimism. It's going to kill me, I know ._.
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#99
RE: DEBUNKING THE CONSPIRACY THEORY
They couldn't have made it up? Are you kidding me?

Yeah, it's really hard to make stuff up. Ever heard of fiction? There's reams of the stuff.

The bible is mostly fiction. Deal with it. Asking us to prove your ridiculous speculation wrong is not how things work between sensible adults. This is just the same shit over and over, it's really insulting.
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RE: DEBUNKING THE CONSPIRACY THEORY
1774 posts, and not one goddamn lick of sense. I have to admit his capacity to purvey nonsense is somewhat impressive.
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