Dear Resident Theists

[LastPoet]

Now I know how a toilet feels :-(

[Cyberman]

Flushed?

[Homeless Nutter]

Now I know how a toilet feels :-(

Cold at first, but overall - comfortable?
(where have you been sh*ting up until now?)

[Neo-Scholastic]

Actually lucanus there is absolutely no evidence that the right combination of chemicals is a suitable environment can generate self replicating molecular life. None. Nada. Zero. It's all speculation and atheistic wishful thinking. There has never been nor will there ever be an RNA world or amino acid soup sufficient to produce a single cell.

Still it certainly puts my mind to rest knowing you personally can vouch for the insufficiency of all prior conditions of the earth even in the presence of the right inorganic materials to ever result in biogenesis.  What was I thinking?  Obviously therefore God - assuming He had anymore luck self assembling than life itself.

I was and am still calling his bluff. I have every right to ask for the evidence of an RNA world or similar. Looney just asserts it. At least when I talk about natural theology I make an attempt to present a case. And for the rest of you ridicule of a supernatural origin does not constitute proof. Even if I'm wrong that doesn't make you right. So. Lucanus, support your claim that all the evidence points to the right mixture of chemicals etc.

[Lucanus]

The evidence we have points in that direction. It's not necessarily the RNA world hypothesis. I linked to an article a couple posts above. Here's that link again:

https://www.ucl.ac.uk/news/news-articles...energetics

I know, this is "just a hypothesis", but could you please tell me why a supernatural explanation would be more likely to be true, especially when every single time in the history of mankind they have been proven wrong once the technology became advanced enough to?

ETA:

Actual paper: http://www.cell.com/abstract/S0092-8674(12)01438-9

Nature article: http://www.nature.com/news/how-life-emer...ks-1.12109

[Ronkonkoma]

Correct me if I'm wrong....

First cause:

We are part of the self-conscious universe. Our brains are the most complex things we know in the universe. We are parts of the universe that probe the universe and are fascinated by it, because being intelligent, we can also sense intelligence when it is there.  We are able to create things in the small scheme, and we look for a creator on the grand scheme of things. The Cal Tech supercomputer can now make measurements 10 to the 23rd power. It has been estimated by astronomers that the complexity of the universe in simply balancing gravity against the electric force needs calculations a hundred trillion times more precise. And this is just one aspect of the universe that without which life could never happen.

The Universe had a beginning. It is no longer believed to be infinite. This was shown by the Big Bang theory. Time itself had a beginning (see the "beginning of time"" by Stephen Hawkins). Space, time and matter had a beginning!

This is important to your question because it was a commonly held idea that life initially came about on earth by chance form atoms assembling to form molecules and proteins, cells, to reproducing life by random chance over an infinite amount of time, over an infinite amount of rolls of dice on a seemingly infinite number of earth-like planets. We now know that time is not infinite. And neither is matter. There are very strict requirements for the existence of life in the expanding universe, and our Earth in our 21st century is extremely lucky in that regard. Yes, we are star dust. Flourine in our bodies can only form as dust from a dying star is pulled off by the gravity of a nearby dying star, and a third planet is around to cross the path of this star dust. There are an estimated 41 of fine tuned conditions like these that are needed for life to exist on a planet. A chance in a billion trillions.

This is crucial because, like seeing an exploding grenade and asking, "who pulled the pin?", we are asking, Who or what caused this????

And the answer is, if there is a cause for the Big Bang and the beginning of time, space and matter, and life itself, it is GROSSLY INTELLIGENT.  

Stop right there! No one ever said that life formed on Earth by chance and "an infinite time". Life formed quite early in the history of our planet, and we have fossil evidence for that. Matter and time might not be infinite, but compared to the size of a cell, they are HUGE.

Plus, life formed because the conditions were right. Life formed because of the laws of physics and in the ways that they allowed for its existence. I really find it silly to say that the laws of physics, that make life impossible in 99.99999999999999999% of the universe, were fine tuned for it. Especially if the cause was "GROSSLY INTELLIGENT". Grossly bad at engineering, if this is what it calls "fine tuning".

Hence...
V
V
V
Deistic deity.
Since space, matter and time had a beginning, the Cause of it must have existed OUTSIDE of space, matter and time.
So the question, "if God created the universe who created God?" does not apply. That's because something beyond space and time has no need to begin to exist, but is rather in eternal existence.

[citation needed]

Hence... we come to theology
V
V
V
Theistic god:
If the material universe has a beginning and is finite and it has a cause, the cause must be immaterial. Hence, theologians have been saying since thousands of years that God is immaterial (God is spirit). And if this Origin of space and time is outside of space and time, it can also be omnipresent.

Evidence pls

And a God of Love:
The total mass of the universe acts as a catalyst for nuclear fusion. The more massive the cosmos, the more efficient nuclear fusion. If the Universe is too massive, the basic elements Oxygen, Nitrogen and Carbon could not form. If the Universe was too small, we would be stuck with only Hydrogen. But the Universe is exploding from a miniscule beginnings of an immensely immense mass. The time for life to form is exactly now. Its taken 14 billion years. Now, the exact position and mass of a billion stars allows life to form on this miniscule planet. OUR life. Hence... the Creator is loving since the price He paid for life to form on earth can be seen in the brilliance of a billion stars in the night sky. Just as Abraham gazed at the night sky and conversed with God, leading him out for the Promised Land.

If the Creator was omnipotent, the universe could simply work differently, and could support life in a much higher percentage of it. You are deluded.


ETA: I take the Creator as omnipotent because, having been a Catholic, I remember what the Creed said:

I believe in one God, the Father almighty, maker of heaven and earth, of all things visible and invisible

The fact that you called me deluded ends all discussion.

[Lucanus]

¯\_(ツ)_/¯

[Cephus]

The fact that you called me deluded ends all discussion.

Maybe you should stop being deluded then?

[Homeless Nutter]

The fact that you called me deluded ends all discussion.

True that. "Deluded" sums it up pretty succinctly.

[Lucanus]

The fact that you called me deluded ends all discussion.

True that. "Deluded" sums it up pretty succinctly.

Shots fired! Bahahaha