No More Anti-Theists

[Catholic_Lady]

like being nice to others? or trying to give the extras one has to people that don't have them?  kind of decisions? 

Just sayin.

Yeah, like those. How about being nice because you've thought about good reasons to be nice? Because you value the present life more than one that exists in your imagination?

How is anti-theist a blanket statement? It simply means I'm against theism for its effects that I see as harmful - including the doing of good from ignorant motivations.

I think a lot of folks here see it the wrong way. Being "religiously motivated" to do good deeds is not necessarily about doing them for the sole purpose of being "rewarded" in Heaven or whatever. That would be simplistic and kind of counter productive anyway, since it's nothing but self serving and the whole point is selflessness and love. 

Growing up Catholic, I learned about the virtues of charity, generosity, forgiveness, honesty, etc etc, and I learned about having respect for and seeing the dignity in all people. Because all people (and all creation, really) are made by God and thus have inherent dignity and worth, no matter how small or insignificant they may appear. Those are the values that I was taught in my faith based upbringing, just like everyone (religious or not) grows up being taught certain values. 

I don't think I'd appreciate it all too much if one of my friends accused me of doing good things only because I'm trying to go to Heaven.

[Shuffle]

*rolls up sleeves

Right, definitions time, everyone. Antitheism (noun - per. 'antitheist'):

1. 'In opposition to theism'. This is a general term which can be applied to any scenario which sits in opposition to theism (e.g. a religious person may express a position which is antitheistic, often in relation to other religions). It can be applied specifically ('that theistic claim is wrong') or generally ('I think all theisms are wrong').

2. 'Disbelief in theistic propositions'. This is the specific counter-claim to theistic propositions; the claim that 'no god/s exist'. Also known as Gnostic or Strong atheism. This can be expressed specifically ('Shiva doesn't exist') or generally ('There's no such thing as gods')

3. 'Opposed to organised religion'. This is a position that, once again, can be espoused by religious/irreligious alike (although it's more likely to be pagan or deist religionists rather than theists).

Ok, so what is your position on the OP?

[Shuffle]

I think everyone complaining that antitheist sounds like you're against theists is using the word wrong. Antitheist describes the person, whereas antitheism describes the belief, in much the same way that atheist describes the person and atheism describes their beliefs, and I dont see anyone complaining that atheist sounds like you're without theists.

I would also say that people who write antitheist as their religious views dont understand the difference either. They might be an antitheist but their religious views are antitheism.

It's not very often I give people lessons in grammar lol.

But the thing is, putting antitheism as your religious views is like saying "I believe in a god." It could be an infinite of gods you believe in, so you are not saying anything special. If someone cannot restrain, than put atheist after it.

[jesus_wept]

I dont have a problem with people believing in god and being an antitheist, a deist could quite possibly be one, so it's up to the individual to describe themselves how they like imo. I was just pointing out that many people were using the word wrong.

[Shuffle]

I dont have a problem with people believing in god and being an antitheist, a deist could quite possibly be one, so it's up to the individual to describe themselves how they like imo. I was just pointing out that many people were using the word wrong.

True dat.

[Mudhammam]

I think a lot of folks here see it the wrong way. Being "religiously motivated" to do good deeds is not necessarily about doing them for the sole purpose of being "rewarded" in Heaven or whatever. That would be simplistic and kind of counter productive anyway, since it's nothing but self serving and the whole point is selflessness and love. 

Growing up Catholic, I learned about the virtues of charity, generosity, forgiveness, honesty, etc etc, and I learned about having respect for and seeing the dignity in all people. Because all people (and all creation, really) are made by God and thus have inherent dignity and worth, no matter how small or insignificant they may appear. Those are the values that I was taught in my faith based upbringing, just like everyone (religious or not) grows up being taught certain values. 

I don't think I'd appreciate it all too much if one of my friends accused me of doing good things only because I'm trying to go to Heaven.

Well, I wouldn't discount the hope of reward and the fear of punishment - in the hereafter - as motivating factors for many religious people. To the extent that a person acts according to their moral compass as informed by a reasoned analysis of their circumstances in the world (i.e., that sentient creatures can suffer, for example), it can no longer be considered a religious ideal. For example, take the four cardinal virtues that Catholics consider "natural": Prudence, justice, courage, and temperance. These were recognized by philosophers long before Jesus or Aquinas. And the theological virtues - faith, hope, and love - what grants these the status of being "theological"? They're completely non-religious in nature (and why faith should be considered a virtue at all is beyond me). I think it's good that Catholics educate their children in the virtues - but not because of anything having to do with Catholicism. I think the superstition required for its particular dogmas do harm to the cause of virtuous living if only because they destroy the value of seeking knowledge from a place of being humbly self-aware of one's own ignorance that any search for truth - which must intrude on the speculations of the theological and the ethical at times - demands.

[Cato]

Growing up Catholic, I learned about the virtues of charity, generosity, forgiveness, honesty, etc etc, and I learned about having respect for and seeing the dignity in all people. Because all people (and all creation, really) are made by God and thus have inherent dignity and worth, no matter how small or insignificant they may appear. Those are the values that I was taught in my faith based upbringing, just like everyone (religious or not) grows up being taught certain values. 

Basing a standard of value on the fact that everything is created by God is still religiously motivated. I believe the point Nestor was making is that religion is not required to be good, which was offered in juxtaposition to Comet's comment that loosely supported a view that religion for some is a motivating force for being good.

I agree with your assertion that many religious people don't behave in a manner we call good [i]explicitly[/] for the expectation of future reward (heaven); however, the behavior of many believers is significantly influenced by the fear of going to hell. For me this is just the other side of the same coin.

[Cato]

But the thing is, putting antitheism as your religious views is like saying "I believe in a god."

Bullshit.

I also find it amusing that you are taking issue with the term anti-theist, a term that quite specifically and with great clarity describes a specific view of religion, as a response to a query of someone's religious views. This is all very quixotic.

[Catholic_Lady]

Growing up Catholic, I learned about the virtues of charity, generosity, forgiveness, honesty, etc etc, and I learned about having respect for and seeing the dignity in all people. Because all people (and all creation, really) are made by God and thus have inherent dignity and worth, no matter how small or insignificant they may appear. Those are the values that I was taught in my faith based upbringing, just like everyone (religious or not) grows up being taught certain values. 

Basing a standard of value on the fact that everything is created by God is still religiously motivated. I believe the point Nestor was making is that religion is not required to be good, which was offered in juxtaposition to Comet's comment that loosely supported a view that religion for some is a motivating force for being good.

I agree with your assertion that many religious people don't behave in a manner we call good [i]explicitly[/] for the expectation of future reward (heaven); however, the behavior of many believers is significantly influenced by the fear of going to hell. For me this is just the other side of the same coin.

Oh I know it is religiously motivated. I am glad to say my religion motivates me and teaches me a strong set of values and virtues. 

What I was saying to Nestor was that being religiously motivated to do good deeds is not necessarily about doing them for the sole purpose of being "rewarded" in Heaven.

I agree that religion is not required to be good. And I agree, that the particular people who are "being good" only for their own self serving promises of an afterlife, are missing the whole point and being extremely counter productive. The whole point is love and selflessness towards others. 

[The Grand Nudger]

I dont have a problem with people believing in god and being an antitheist, a deist could quite possibly be one, so it's up to the individual to describe themselves how they like imo. I was just pointing out that many people were using the word wrong.

If you take a laser like view of theism, as not -just- the belief in a god, but in a "personal god"....the difference between theism and deism, then yeah, of course a deist can be an anti-theist. Anti-theism is not anti-deism, hehehehe. I think where many mis-use the word is in not recognizing a difference between "believing in a god" and "believing in a personal god with this or that desire". So, when a christian, for example, hears that you can believe in a god and still be an anti-theist - combined with the disdain that anti-theists often express for religious organizations, they think..."hey, I'm a christian anti-theist!". They aren't. Christ is in the theism camp, not the deism camp. Similarly, anti-theism is not a position on religion, as religion does not require a god, either theistic or deistic, though it is a position on those religions which -do- include a theistic god specifically...and perhaps more generally and indirectly, though not necessarily, religions which include deistic gods.