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Anti gay-marriage atheist??
#61
RE: Anti gay-marriage atheist??
An atheist once rung up on the Atheist Experience, claiming to be an "atheist homophobe". He then spent the rest of the call explaining that the definition of homophobe is wrong, and doesn't properly describe him, even though he chose the word in the first place.

Takes all sorts to fuck up a planet!
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#62
RE: Anti gay-marriage atheist??
(August 31, 2015 at 3:47 am)Nestor Wrote:
(August 30, 2015 at 7:28 pm)Catholic_Lady Wrote: My husband left for a trip and I'm bored. Meaning It's one of those evenings where I look for any excuse to post lol. 

I was browsing my facebook news feed today and came across this article called The Secular Case Against Gay Marriage, posted by an acquaintance on my friend's list. I thought it was very out of character and was curious to hear you guys' opinions/comments/counter arguments on the points being made. Fire away!! 
If that surprises you, check out this interesting argument against gay marriage (written in the late 90s or early 00s, I think) by philosopher Claudia Card, a LESBIAN:
https://pol285.blog.gustavus.edu/files/2...rriage.pdf

Her basic argument is something like, if males had only been allowed to own slaves in the 19th century, it would have been dumb for females to fight for that right rather than abolishing the institution itself. And she then makes the case that marriage is a flawed institution which cannot be fixed for the following reasons:
1. Employer benefits are limited to married persons, punishing those that choose not to be married.
2. Pressures not to divorce because of consequences keep people trapped in abusive relationships.
3. The idea of monogamy bars possible loving relationships with others.
4. Legal right of access makes the state a third party to your marriage.

Hence, gays and lesbians should not support the right to marry.


I have read similar (though much less developed) arguments from people at this site regarding marriage.  The position is fundamentally different from the opening post, as it is not advocating treating people differently based on sexual orientation, but is an argument in favor of abolishing marriage.  Her position is more radical, in that it is an argument for restructuring society.

Not that you have asked for it, but




The article to which you post a link was published in 1996.  If you click on your link and read the first line under her name, you will see which journal as well as the date.

"A wise man ... proportions his belief to the evidence."
— David Hume, An Enquiry Concerning Human Understanding, Section X, Part I.
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#63
RE: Anti gay-marriage atheist??
(August 31, 2015 at 12:01 pm)Neimenovic Wrote: Everything the cathol says regarding sex makes me barf. It's why I can't have anything nice.

If someone bothers you that much, you may wish to just put them on your ignore list.

"A wise man ... proportions his belief to the evidence."
— David Hume, An Enquiry Concerning Human Understanding, Section X, Part I.
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#64
RE: Anti gay-marriage atheist??
(August 31, 2015 at 12:43 pm)Pyrrho Wrote:
(August 31, 2015 at 12:01 pm)Neimenovic Wrote: Everything the cathol says regarding sex makes me barf. It's why I can't have anything nice.

If someone bothers you that much, you may wish to just put them on your ignore list.

I mean 'the cathol' as in the RCC in general, not CL. I'll edit it to clarify.

I already have people who bug me on ignore. Too bad I can't do the same in real life ._.
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#65
RE: Anti gay-marriage atheist??
(August 31, 2015 at 1:01 pm)Neimenovic Wrote: I already have people who bug me on ignore.

I only have one person on ignore. He's no theist and only an occasional poster. But for me he's the embodyment of an ignorant presumptuous idiot.

Otherwise I take what's dished out. If I don't feel like reading posts of a certain member at a certain time, I just skip over them.
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#66
RE: Anti gay-marriage atheist??
I'm too impulsive. If I see something stupid, I'll get mad and feel compelled to argue. Not good for my health.
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#67
RE: Anti gay-marriage atheist??
(August 31, 2015 at 11:38 am)Catholic_Lady Wrote: No, it just means gays are no different from the rest of us. We all have temptations, we all do things that are immoral sometimes. This applies to everyone everywhere.  

The actual feelings of attraction towards the same sex are not sinful because they are not freely chosen. Whether they stemmed from genetics, from environmental factors, or from a little bit of both depending on the person, the important part is to remember that it is not voluntary. So being gay, in and of itself, is not immoral because it is not chosen.

While softly worded, I do have to point out that in practice this still means that gay people must deny huge parts of themselves in order to obey Catholic doctrine. That the church isn't directly, overtly hounding and discriminating against them (anymore) doesn't change the fact that what they are demanding of gay people, if they want to avoid hell and be in god's good graces, is amazingly cruel and callous. All the while, of course, the church offers a way out of that blanket, untenable denial to straight people, and they just studiously work to deny that same escape route to gay people for no real reason.

In reality, this new Catholic position on homosexuality is just a way to wrap a more subtle homophobia in nicer language; it's nothing more than a way for the church to continue demanding what it has of gay people for decades, while attempting to slip the charge of bigotry that they rightly deserve for doing so.
"YOU take the hard look in the mirror. You are everything that is wrong with this world. The only thing important to you, is you." - ronedee

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#68
RE: Anti gay-marriage atheist??
It's still saying fuck you, but this time with a nice smile and without the finger.
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#69
RE: Anti gay-marriage atheist??
(August 31, 2015 at 1:40 pm)Esquilax Wrote:
(August 31, 2015 at 11:38 am)Catholic_Lady Wrote: No, it just means gays are no different from the rest of us. We all have temptations, we all do things that are immoral sometimes. This applies to everyone everywhere.  

The actual feelings of attraction towards the same sex are not sinful because they are not freely chosen. Whether they stemmed from genetics, from environmental factors, or from a little bit of both depending on the person, the important part is to remember that it is not voluntary. So being gay, in and of itself, is not immoral because it is not chosen.

While softly worded, I do have to point out that in practice this still means that gay people must deny huge parts of themselves in order to obey Catholic doctrine. That the church isn't directly, overtly hounding and discriminating against them (anymore) doesn't change the fact that what they are demanding of gay people, if they want to avoid hell and be in god's good graces, is amazingly cruel and callous. All the while, of course, the church offers a way out of that blanket, untenable denial to straight people, and they just studiously work to deny that same escape route to gay people for no real reason.

In reality, this new Catholic position on homosexuality is just a way to wrap a more subtle homophobia in nicer language; it's nothing more than a way for the church to continue demanding what it has of gay people for decades, while attempting to slip the charge of bigotry that they rightly deserve for doing so.

No one is saying that it's easy, or that God does not have mercy on those who fall short. It is a very tall order. Yes, ideally, we believe they should try to live a chaste life style. But we should not judge those who don't, because like you said, it is a very difficult thing to do. I don't think it's "bigoted" to have the belief that sex outside husband and wife is immoral. People can still do what they want in their sex life, and we should respect all people.  But it doesn't mean we have to think it's moral. That's not bigoted. 

On a semi unrelated note, do you think that it's wrong in general to believe someone should deny a huge part of themselves? Or only in certain cases? 

Because there are other cases where all of us, as a society, believe a person should deny huge parts of themselves.
"Of course, everyone will claim they respect someone who tries to speak the truth, but in reality, this is a rare quality. Most respect those who speak truths they agree with, and their respect for the speaking only extends as far as their realm of personal agreement. It is less common, almost to the point of becoming a saintly virtue, that someone truly respects and loves the truth seeker, even when their conclusions differ wildly." 

-walsh
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#70
RE: Anti gay-marriage atheist??
(August 31, 2015 at 1:52 pm)Catholic_Lady Wrote:
(August 31, 2015 at 1:40 pm)Esquilax Wrote: While softly worded, I do have to point out that in practice this still means that gay people must deny huge parts of themselves in order to obey Catholic doctrine. That the church isn't directly, overtly hounding and discriminating against them (anymore) doesn't change the fact that what they are demanding of gay people, if they want to avoid hell and be in god's good graces, is amazingly cruel and callous. All the while, of course, the church offers a way out of that blanket, untenable denial to straight people, and they just studiously work to deny that same escape route to gay people for no real reason.

In reality, this new Catholic position on homosexuality is just a way to wrap a more subtle homophobia in nicer language; it's nothing more than a way for the church to continue demanding what it has of gay people for decades, while attempting to slip the charge of bigotry that they rightly deserve for doing so.

No one is saying that it's easy, or that God does not have mercy on those who fall short. It is a very tall order. Yes, ideally, we believe they should try to live a chaste life style. But we should not judge those who don't, because like you said, it is a very difficult thing to do. I don't think it's "bigoted" to have the belief that sex outside husband and wife is immoral. People can still do what they want in their sex life, and we should respect all people.  But it doesn't mean we have to think it's moral. That's not bigoted. 

On a semi unrelated note, do you think that it's wrong in general to believe someone should deny a huge part of themselves? Or only in certain cases? 

Because there are other cases where all of us, as a society, believe a person should deny huge parts of themselves.

What cases are those?
Nolite te bastardes carborundorum.
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