Believers don't believe

[Dotard]

Very few people believe in God.

Now billions of people may say they believe in God, but very few people actually do. If people genuinely believe they would live every minute of every day in support of that belief. The rich would give away their wealth to the needy. Everyone would be just frantic trying to determine which religion was the true one. No one could be comfortable in the thought they just might have picked the wrong religion and blundered into eternal d-mnation, or bad reincarnation or separation from their God or some other crazy consequence. People would dedicate their entire lives converting others to their particular brand of religion.

A belief in God would require 100% obsessive devotion, influencing every single waking moment of their lives of this brief life on earth. But none of these billions of people who profess belief in God live their lives in this fashion, save for a very few. The majority believe in the usefulness of their beliefs, an earthly and practical utility, but they have no belief in any underlying reality.

They say they believe because pretending to believe is nessasary to gain the benefits of religion. They tell other people they believe and do believer-like things, like read their holy books, pray and give some money to charities, but they don’t do the things a true believer would do, the things a believer would have to do.

If you believed a truck was barreling down on you, you would jump out of the way. That is belief in the reality of the truck. If you tell people a truck is coming toward you and you fear the truck yet do nothing to get out of the way, that is not belief in the truck. Likewise, it is not belief to say God exists then continue to hoard wealth while innocent folks die of starvation. When belief does not control your every decision every day of your brief life, it is not belief in any underlying reality, it is belief for the sake of the usefulness of believing.

Folks only act as if they believe because there is an earthly benefit for doing so. They create a delusion for themselves because it makes them happy. Atheists also prefer delusions. One day I’ll explain a bit more on that thought, this one is on God belief.

Jews and Muslims believe Christ is not the son of God. If they are right, then Christians are mistaken about the core of their religion. If the Jews have the right religion, then the Hindus and Buddhists and Muslims and Christians are wrong. If the Christians have the right religion, then the Jews and Muslims and Hindus and Buddhists are wrong. If the Muslims have the right religion, then the Hindus and Christians and Jews and Buddhists are wrong. Not minor details there. At some level of consciousness, everyone knows that the odds of choosing the right one true religion (if such a thing actually exists) are nil.

The best thing any human can do is pick a delusion that helps them get through the day. This is why the people of all the different religions can generally live in peace. Because, at some level, all you theist types suspect that other people really don’t believe in any underlying reality of their religion any more than you believe in yours.

The only group of people I can say with certainty actually do believe in an underlying reality of thier religion are these crazy Muslim fundimentalists. They will mass-murder and commit suicide and crash airplanes full of people into high rise buildings all in the name of their God and their religion. They are some serious theists.

Makes your theism seem a little lacking.

[Tiberius]

It all depends on how they follow their religion. Most believers don't go around converting people because they don't think their god would punish unbelievers, others because they use god as a comfort blanket. There are many reasons why theists don't go around converting people. There are of course, plenty of theists who do go around trying to convert people. Claiming that there are no believers is a fundamental misunderstanding of the diversity of religious beliefs.

[Edwardo Piet]

Good post as far as the 'belief in belief' thing goes at least. Dan Dennett has said a similar or pretty much the same thing. The huge majority of people don't believe in God. No one really does these days anymore apart from a few exceptions.
Most 'believers' these days, don't 'believe in God' they 'believe in thebelief in God'. They think the belief is a good thing, they believe in the belief ITSELF. Not in God.
And I guess you are right to say that even atheists have delusions. Some would have bigger than others. I'd say most atheists who have delusions, either have really minor ones, or some superstitious thinking like 'don't break a mirror or walk under a ladder' thing. Or they believe in pseudo-sciences like homeopathy and astrology. What I'm wondering is if you didn't actually believe in those superstitions as an atheist. What possible benefit would you get by believing in them? To socialize with astrology groups or people who believe in astrology for example? Why would you be interested in doing that? Is there a benefit? So I'm interested to hear you perhaps answer these questions in your post about atheist superstition that you mentioned you'll explain in future.
Adrian, I know that of course there are many diversities of religious belief. But don't the bible and koran for instance explicitly say you should do and believe certain things? So if you take your religion seriously and literally. You'd have to be fundamentalist about it and actually DO what the scripture says. So if you don't how can you actually really believe in God?
Although I think perhaps the answer to this, is this: Some people think that God is guiding them to interpret the scripture how he wants them to. Basically a justification for their cherry-picking as if it actually makes sense. A big cop-out to actually reading it properly. Could that be so? What do you think?

[Psalm 23]

Very few people believe in God.

http://www.adherents.com

Now billions of people may say they believe in God, but very few people actually do. If people genuinely believe they would live every minute of every day in support of that belief. The rich would give away their wealth to the needy. Everyone would be just frantic trying to determine which religion was the true one. No one could be comfortable in the thought they just might have picked the wrong religion and blundered into eternal d-mnation, or bad reincarnation or separation from their God or some other crazy consequence. People would dedicate their entire lives converting others to their particular brand of religion.

Are you claiming the majority of the world are actually agnostic? The rich do give away their money to charities. How do you think the Christian Churches are worth Billions? Who do you think is donating their money? Are there any atheist organizations that have a bank account in the billions of dollars for charities? People are working frantically to find the right religion. Why do you think so many Muslims are converting to Christianity, and vise-versa? Do you notice the two religions from the Middle East are dominating the Globe?

A belief in God would require 100% obsessive devotion, influencing every single waking moment of their lives of this brief life on earth.

Untrue. God said believe in me, and preach my word. It says nothing about donating every waking hour to him.

But none of these billions of people who profess belief in God live their lives in this fashion, save for a very few.

How do you know that? Have you taken a 1,000 person survey?

The majority believe in the usefulness of their beliefs, an earthly and practical utility, but they have no belief in any underlying reality.

Everyone believes their own religion is the truth. Who cares, if it makes a person feel good by saying prayers and the dinner table and before they goto sleep, then so be it. That doesn't mean that person in insane, or delusional! It means that person has found happiness. What do you consider reality? 90% of the world believe in God, so that means they are insane? Is that what you meant by reality?

They say they believe because pretending to believe is nessasary to gain the benefits of religion.

I believe in God because I know life-form didn't generate itself intoa living cell on it's own. that's my reason for believing in God. If you disagree with the God I have chosen to believe is the creator of life, then I'm sorry you feel that way.

They tell other people they believe and do believer-like things, like read their holy books and pray, but they don’t do the things a true believer would do, the things a believer would have to do.

What is your definition of a "True Believer?"

If you believed a truck was barreling down on you, you would jump out of the way. That is belief in the reality of the truck.

That's correct. I'm would jump out of the way.

If you tell people a truck is coming toward you and you fear the truck yet do nothing to get out of the way, that is not belief in the truck.

If I fear the truck, why wouldn't I get out the way?

Likewise, it is not belief to say God exists then continue to hoard wealth while innocent folks die of starvation.

I suggest you research the Christian foundations that are helping starving people all across the world. I suggest you do some research before you make statements like that.

When belief does not control your every decision every day of your brief life, it is not belief in any underlying reality, it is belief for the sake of the usefulness of believing.

I don't live day by day believing every choice I make is being controlled. I make my own decisions. If it's right, then awesome! If it's wrong, then so be it. God knows I'm a sinner, but he also knows I was saved in the Blood and Body of Jesus Christ.

Folks only act as if they believe because there is an earthly benefit for doing so. They create a delusion for themselves because it makes them happy.

This was a debate between Richard Dawkins and Bill O'Reilly. O'Reilly told him, "Who cares if I'm happy with my decision, why are so against that?"

Atheists also prefer delusions. One day I’ll explain a bit more on that thought, this one is on God belief.

Maybe it's the atheists that are delusional? Life did not arise from non-life. Something was there to kick-start life into motion. The creation of life was a not a magic trick.

Jews and Muslims believe Christ is not the son of God. If they are right, then Christians are mistaken about the core of their religion.

That's right. No arguement from me.

If the Jews have the right religion, then the Hindus and Buddhists and Muslims and Christians are wrong. If the Christians have the right religion, then the Jews and Muslims and Hindus and Buddhists are wrong.

If the Christians are right, then the world is doomed.

If the Muslims have the right religion, then the Hindus and Christians and Jews and Buddhists are wrong.

See last post, but insert [Islam]

At some level of consciousness, everyone knows that the odds of choosing the right one true religion (if such a thing actually exists) are nil.

And what are the odds of atheists being right?

The best thing any human can do is pick a delusion that helps them get through the day. This is why the people of all the different religions can generally live in peace. Because, at some level, all you theist types suspect that other people really don’t believe in any underlying reality of their religion any more than you believe in yours.

I don't care what Muslims, Buddhists, Hindus and Jews think of me. Jesus said, "Love your neighbors and your enemies." If that is a delusion, then I'm sticking with it. No harm, No foul.

The only group of people I can say with certainty actually do believe in an underlying reality of thier religion are these crazy Muslim fundimentalists. They will mass-murder and commit suicide and crash airplanes full of people into high rise buildings all in the name of their God and their religion. They are some serious theists.

So, bloodshed makes someone a believer more than another religion? How were the Hijackers of 9-11 more believers in Allah than I am in Yahweh? Because I chose not to fly an airplane 650 MPH into a building? You failed to mention how believers in Christ have been executed throughout the last 20 centuries! I guess these men were TRUE believers, right? These Christians were executed just for believing Jesus Christ existed. These Disciples went all the way to their execution chamber swearing by God that this man named Jesus did exist, and he did perform miracles!! But these Disciples were laughed at, and then executed.

Makes your theism seem a little lacking.

The Qu'ran commanded Muslims to murder their enemies of war. The Holy Bible says, "Love your enemies, and preach the word to the Infidels." And "If they do not hear your words, then shake the dust from your feet and walk away from them."

Islam - Murder in the name of Allah and you are granted eternal life with 72 Virgins (or grapes) whichever version you read.

Christianity, "Love your neighbors as you love yourself."

Where does delusional fit in between good and bad?

[leo-rcc]

Ooh Psalm, cherry picking from the bible here is a very bad mistake. You know full well that the bible has many atrocities in its chapters, ranging from rape to infanticide to genocide. You cannot claim the Qu'ran to be a bad book and not say the same of the bible. I can just as easily cherry pick good and nice passages out of the Qu'ran.

[Ace Otana]

Very few people believe in God.

Now billions of people may say they believe in God, but very few people actually do.

Agreed, now I have meet alot of people who claimed to be theistic and turned out to be atheist.

For example, I was chatting with this lovely young lady about religion. At first she was expressing strong theistic devotions but as the discussion progressed she started admitting that she has been questioning religion for sometime and that she does indeed doubt it. She even told me that if she didn't believe it (pretend to believe) she would be verbally attacked by her parents.

So she was an atheist in the closet.

Now, I've meet many people like her. There are far more atheists in the world than you think. Theists that I've meet have admitted to being atheists. They just don't want to be attacked for their atheism.

So, there are people out their with a theist tag around them and yet they don't actually believe in gawd(god).

[LukeMC]

I'd say alot of people believe there is a god, but a very small percentage know anything about it.
They know "God will save me. Love thy neighbour. I will go to heaven. Pray. Jesus rocks. God has a plan. Sin is bad." But very few of them take the time to analyse their gods and beliefs properly. My parents being a great example of this. They just cherrypick a few facts and look no further, then check the "catholic" box on the surveys having never read the bible. I'm sort of in agreement with Dotard, not many people have thorough, concrete beliefs, just a few abstract ideas which could be torn to pieces in 5 minutes by any one of us (because they haven't thought in enough depth to defend their position).

Might be different in other countries. But here in England, most people believe in heaven, god the father, and beyond that they have nothing to say on the matter (but still tick the christian box on a survey).

[Psalm 23]

Ooh Psalm, cherry picking from the bible here is a very bad mistake. You know full well that the bible has many atrocities in its chapters, ranging from rape to infanticide to genocide. You cannot claim the Qu'ran to be a bad book and not say the same of the bible. I can just as easily cherry pick good and nice passages out of the Qu'ran.

The O/P claims those who commit bloodshed in the name of their god are true theists. Are you suggesting the writers of the bible were true dedicated Warriors for God?

I agree, The Old Testament is a book that is filled with violence, but that's the society they lived in. It was accepted by them, so why are you so concerned about it? The world no longer lives by the O.T Law. You better thank your lucky stars on that one. Do you know it would be acceptable for a group of Christians to drag you out of your house and hang you in your front yard for slandering Jehovah?

It was acceptable 3,500 years ago to stone someone to death for worshipping pagan idols. But do you see modern Christians killing in the name of Jesus Christ? If you do, it's far and few. Example; Eric Rudolph bombed an abortion clinic, but his religion (Christianity) doesn't teach; "Kill those who agree with abortion." Just because delusional and insane people are making horrible judgements, doesn't mean their religion is teaching them to commit these horrible acts on humanity. If that was the case. Christians would be bombing abortion clinics on a daily basis.

Adolf Hitler said, 'I am doing God's work by slaughtering the Jews!" Where does the bible say "God wants all of his believers to slaughter his own people?" Hitler is another great example of an insane person claiming his religion is Christianity, but then he goes and does something that Jesus Christ was totally against!!

Let me ask you, was Hitler loving his enemies, and praying for those who cursed him? Answer, No! He will killing those who cursed him. Hardly a Christ-Like figure.

Eyewitnesses from the Halocaust heard Hitler's Soliders asking the Jews, "Where is your God now?" as they led them to the execution chamber. Gee, who was Hitler really working for?

Hitler said, "I'm doing God's work." Which God? Satan? Destroying the Jews was not in God's eternal plan-book. But I believe it's Satan's desire to exterminate the Jews.

[Edwardo Piet]

http://www.adherents.com

How exactly do those statistics distinguish between "belief" and belief in belief?

Are you claiming the majority of the world are actually agnostic? The rich do give away their money to charities. How do you think the Christian Churches are worth Billions? Who do you think is donating their money? Are there any atheist organizations that have a bank account in the billions of dollars for charities? People are working frantically to find the right religion. Why do you think so many Muslims are converting to Christianity, and vise-versa? Do you notice the two religions from the Middle East are dominating the Globe?

. Yes I haven't looked into it but I've heard a lot about it. And I can imagine Christians DO give a lot to charity. But that's NOT because they believe in the supernatural. Morality is innate and it has been hijacked by religion. Its NOT in religion and then we steal it off religion. Because its innate in us in the first place. Believing in God doesn't make you more moral.
Furthermore there is a lot of evil that religion DOES do. If you fundamentally believe the OT or the koran for instance. And take it literally and are dogmatic about it. It can cause an otherwise good person to do some very evil things because he thinks its righteous.
And about the 'two religions from the Middle East' dominating the globe. This is true its of course horrific. Its horrific that people go to war over what they "believe" is "God". On the other hand can you imagine anybody going to war because UNbelief in God? Can you imagine 9/11, the crusades, the inquisition, etc, happening because of an UNbelief?

Untrue. God said believe in me, and preach my word. It says nothing about donating every waking hour to him.

Yes but the bible and the koran say a LOT of things don't they? A lot of horrific stuff, not just 'good stuff'. So you pick and choose. And yoy use your innate morality to do so. And you certainly don't need to believe in God to pick and choose what God says. Its got nothing to do with "God".

Everyone believes their own religion is the truth.

Errr, how on earth can you know this? There are of course fakers. And there are people who mistake fake belief for belief. Who simply follow Pascal's Wager. And there are of course people who simply 'believe in belief in God' how couldn't there be? And how can you make such a claim that "everyone believes their own religion is the truth"?

Who cares, if it makes a person feel good by saying prayers and the dinner table and before they goto sleep, then so be it. That doesn't mean that person in insane, or delusional! It means that person has found happiness. What do you consider reality? 90% of the world believe in God, so that means they are insane? Is that what you meant by reality?

Finding happiness through delusion does not mean its not a delusion. Consolation is not proof of God. Popularity if not proof of God. And once again, if it makes you happy that doesn't mean its not delusional. It doesn't mean its true.

I believe in God because I know life-form didn't generate itself intoa living cell on it's own. that's my reason for believing in God. If you disagree with the God I have chosen to believe is the creator of life, then I'm sorry you feel that way.

You don't know. Life did evolve. I don't know what you think that means, or how you understand evolution. But it did evolve.
And if you feel sorry if we disagree with your God. Then I'm sorry that you persist in your delusion.

I don't live day by day believing every choice I make is being controlled. I make my own decisions. If it's right, then awesome! If it's wrong, then so be it. God knows I'm a sinner, but he also knows I was saved in the Blood and Body of Jesus Christ.

You claim to know the mind of God. How could you know this? Its absurd. How on earth do you know that God knows you are a sinner and he also knows you were saved? How could you know that? Because it says it in the bible? And the bible is the word of God? Well how on earth do you know its the word of God? How is the bible evidence of the truth of its own claims? It isn't, thats how. How do you know you couldn't just invent your own God, and that that wouldn't be just as likely? So how on earth do you know what God thinks? If you can't know that the bible is the word of God in the first place? Were you brought up to believe? Were you taught to believe?

This was a debate between Richard Dawkins and Bill O'Reilly. O'Reilly told him, "Who cares if I'm happy with my decision, why are so against that?"

Well if he keeps it to himself thats fine. But if he actually doesn't want to be delusional, and actually cares about the truth (it seems as if he doesn't because he basically says "who cares as long as I'm happy?", so he doesn't care if its not true if it makes him happy). But he certainly shouldn't influence anyone else with his delusional bullshit. And there's no reason why it should make him happy apart from the fact he believes it does. That he believes such bullshit is positive. I somehow don't think that the God of the bible is exactly someone or something to respected! I'll tell you what, its the truth that makes me happy. Wasn't Jesus supposed to have said: "The truth will set you free". Well if he did, Its quite ironic really that the whole God thing is bullshit. Yes the truth will set you free. So, as humans lets quit with this delusional supernatural bullshit IF we can, huh? Us humans don't need this bullshit.

Maybe it's the atheists that are delusional? Life did not arise from non-life. Something was there to kick-start life into motion. The creation of life was a not a magic trick.

I don't see how absence of a belief in what there is no evidence of and what is extremely improbable, is a delusion? I don't see how absence of delusion is a delusion? So how are atheists delusional exactly?
And by the way. Don't you know? We as humans are made from a lot of non-living things. Don't you believe in atoms? If you don't. Does that mean you don't believe in nuclear bombs? In atom bombs? While we're at it. Do you believe in gravity?

If the Christians are right, then the world is doomed.

Wow those Christians sure sound nice. What a lovely thing to believe in. Why believe in the apocalypse for example if its just about consolation and freedom to believe? Such a thing is of course a truth claim. And its a false truth. Its both a false and delusional AND harmful belief. If Christians are right, then the world is doomed. Jesus f**king Christ. Lets hope they're not. But I don't need to hope. Because they just aren't are they? not only is God extremely improbable but for one particular God to be right. For one particular religion to have got his mind right. When they can't know. That's pretty much impossible.
And of course the world is doomed even if the Christians are wrong. In the end the earth will be no more. It won't last forever. So if humans want to survive they're going to have to live on another planet. So far we haven't found a livable one.

See last post, but insert [Islam]

Good thing that its pretty much impossible for them to be right too.

And what are the odds of atheists being right?

For the moment. Pretty much zero. Because there's no evidence to the contrary. And God is extremely improbable. This is exactly what a universe would look like if there were no supernatural. There's no miracles, no signs of the supernatural whatsoever. God could be deist. But like I said there's no evidence and he/she/it is extremely improbable anyway. There's the infinite regress for a start.
Besides, the burden of proof is on the believer. Its the believer who is postulating the absurd. It is the believer making the claims and/or proclaims about the universe. With no evidence to support them whatsoever. The burden of proof is on them.

I don't care what Muslims, Buddhists, Hindus and Jews think of me. Jesus said, "Love your neighbors and your enemies." If that is a delusion, then I'm sticking with it. No harm, No foul.

The thing is though. You pick and choose. So how can you believe in God's word if you pick and choose God's word?

So, bloodshed makes someone a believer more than another religion? How were the Hijackers of 9-11 more believers in Allah than I am in Yahweh? Because I chose not to fly an airplane 650 MPH into a building? You failed to mention how believers in Christ have been executed throughout the last 20 centuries! I guess these men were TRUE believers, right? These Christians were executed just for believing Jesus Christ existed. These Disciples went all the way to their execution chamber swearing by God that this man named Jesus did exist, and he did perform miracles!! But these Disciples were laughed at, and then executed.

But the point is that being a "true believer" isn't about being a good person. No. Its about actually believing and taking the holy books completely literally and believing every word. And this is what fundamentalist terrorist believers believe right? These people are not mistaken. They don't necessarily claim to do things "in Gods name" they very often do what God actually tells them to do in their holy book.

The Qu'ran commanded Muslims to murder their enemies of war. The Holy Bible says, "Love your enemies, and preach the word to the Infidels." And "If they do not hear your words, then shake the dust from your feet and walk away from them."

the bible is full of horror too. Does it not say In the OT that if your child talks back to you, you should stone them to death? For example. There are huge amounts of horrors in the OT. And Jesus said he didn't come to change ANY of the OT. But to promote it. And Jesus after all, was a Jew.

Islam - Murder in the name of Allah and you are granted eternal life with 72 Virgins (or grapes) whichever version you read.

Christianity, "Love your neighbors as you love yourself."

Where does delusional fit in between good and bad?

Well the first is delusional because its a truth claim thats not true. The second isn't a delusion because its not even claiming anything. Its a matter of opinion. And obviously ts more positive and not evil. But there is a lot of evil in the bible too. Its not like the bible is perfect. You pick and choose parts from the bible. As the less fundamentalist Muslims do. They pick and choose from the koran. Rather than believing the whole thing.
To act as if the bible is perfect would be bullshit. Its not got one line in it that couldn't be written by a man who lived when it was written. There is no evidence of divine guidance of any kind. And the bible is full of immorality and ignorance. And these aren't aren't always mutually exclusive. The bible isn't exactly great. And certainly not as great as a lot of you Christians and Jews make it out to be.
I'd just say its important to our culture, tradition, language. And history.
EDIT: Ok Psalm. So you say that you accept the bible is full of a lot of filth because it was so long ago when it was written. So my question is this: If the bible is the word of God. How can you know what God wants and what doesn't? How can you know God's mind? How can you even know that God is the Christian God? What is your excuse for cherry-picking?
And anyway, belief is not a matter of policy. So when you cherry pick how do you make yourself NOT believe in certain things and TO believe in other things?
Furthermore. Do you ever reject horrific things in the bible that you actually believe in. Because they're horrific? Or do you not believe in the bible anyway and you just pick the good stuff and think faith belief=belief? If you sincerely believe in only the good things that God says in the bible. And believe that all the bad things in the bible were misattributed to God by the writers. Then lucky you. But that still makes it delusional bullshit whether its moral or immoral.

[Dotard]

Claiming that there are no believers is a fundamental misunderstanding of the diversity of religious beliefs.


There are believers. I am claiming there are very few believers in any underlying reality of their theistic religion.

The rich do give away their money to charities.

Yes they do. I have edited my post address this often spouted addressed in the original post with the phrase "They tell other people they believe and do believer-like things," but the dim-witted need it spell out in more detail. That phrase now reads "They tell other people they believe and do believer-like things, like read their holy books, pray and give some money to charities,... ". Jeewillikers man.

How do you know that? Have you taken a 1,000 person survey?


Uhh.. .. Observation? When belief does not control your every decision every day of your brief life, it is not belief in any underlying reality, it is belief for the sake of the usefulness of believing. A belief in God would require 100% obsessive devotion.

Untrue. God said believe in me, and preach my word. It says nothing about donating every waking hour to him.

When it is dependent on what is required to decide where you spend your eternal life be achieved in this very brief, a mere blink of God's eye, earthly life and you really believed in the underlying reality of it, then that belief would require 100% obsessive devotion. Again, when it does not control your every decision, every waking moment, every day of your brief life here on earth, it is not belief in any underlying reality, it is belief for the sake of the usefulness of believing.


And then you go on about me having something 'against' you and your ilk for believing what you believe. No, I don't. I care not your belief provides you with that comfort. If acting as if you believe gives you that earthly benefit of creating a delusion for yourself because it makes you happy then I'm happy for you. I'm just pointing out why I believe you do it and you lack a true belief in a reality behind what you believe.