Believers don't believe

[Edwardo Piet]

Yes, the Truth will set you free, (from eternal damnation) Jesus was saying "live your life while you can, because on judgement day, it's all over for you."

I wasn't talking about eternal damnation. I don't care what Jesus was saying. I just think "the truth will set you free". I'm honest about my cherry-picking. The difference is I don't actually believe in the truth of God, miracles or the supernatural of any kind. And I know HOW I choose nice bits. Its not because of the bible, God, Jesus, miracles, the supernatural, etc. Its because of me.

Roughly 90% of the world believe in God, and that stat is from 2005. For some reason, I don't see human civilization giving up hope in God any time soon.

Thats not what I said though is it? I said IF we can I think we should give it up. Not that everyone's gonna suddenly turn atheist.

Claiming something is not there when it could possibly well be there is a delusion. That is called, living in a world of denial, and nowhere near reality.

I don't claim to 100% know there is no God. I claim that God's extremely improbable. I believe in any God for the same reason I don't believe in Zeus. No evidence. The burden of proof is on the believer. AGAIN you completely misunderstand the burden of proof.

Gee, Do I believe in atoms? Why of course I do. Have you read the bible lately? It says, "God prepared the worlds with things that cannot be seen." What created the universe? Invisible atoms?

Well then you have completely contradicted yourself. Because my whole point was I was criticising the fact that you said that abogenesis can't be right because life can't just come from non-life. Now you say it can. Why would you need a God to do this? Wouldn't postulating an extremely complex and improbable designer of which there is no evidence of and who then makes stuff with atoms, to be more improbable than to simply cut the God part out? The God explanation creates a far bigger and more improbable problem that the one it solves. You're simply making it much much more improbable.

Science laughed and scoffed at the bible verse. They claimed, "How could invisible materials create the Universe??" lol. Who's laughing now?

Me anyway, at least. I cannot speak for others Its not remotely evidence of God or the truth of the bible. If you consider that evidence then I have no idea how you can justify simply proclaiming to have used to be like me and ask the same questions as me.

The end times rapture will be a glorious event for believers.

That's in no way to say that there's any reason that it will actually happen. Its just another claim based upon zero evidence.

The end times will be a joyous event! Hardly a harmful belief.

Like you just said. Glorious for the believers. So if you believe that then that wouldn't include atheists now would it? So thats highly immoral for a start. The whole thing is selfish. And does this just mean believers in your God, in Christianity, or in all religions? And like you said "believers" so its immoral to not include atheists. And like I said no evidence.

I don't think even Dawkins would stoop as low as to use the Lord's name in vain. Atheists lose so much credibility in debate sessions when they do that.

Hey, thats simply a matter of swearing. And wtf are you talking about? I censored it!!! Some people here don't, at least so much. Would you rather I didn't censor?

He is the only God. I'm not aware of other gods? Unless you're talking about people like Thor, Zeus, Odin.. those were men claiming god-like divinity. They were not gods.. they were mortal men that lived and died, and never seen again. And now these religions are nothing but mythological stories. Jehovah is the only one true supernatural God that is an eternal force that was never created, and will never die. All of these ancient gods of the past have died and gone... finished!! but Lord Jehovah's name still stand on the top of the world nearly 4,000 years later!

You just dismissed those God's without a shred of evidence. Sorry but guess what - you're an atheist about Zeus for example, as I am about your God. They were not Gods, they were just men claiming god-like divinity, indeed. Same goes for your God, Its just what you believe, there is no evidence for it. If there is, please give me some. if you can! Its just bullshit as far as I'm concerned.

There is only one God. Believe in the one God that promises he shall never die, and human kind shall face him one day. He made the promise.. why would you risk your afterlife to be excruciating torment and misery for eternity?

No evidence. I'm not risking my afterlife anymore than you are. Pascal's wager falls on its face completely. At least I'm not spending my life believing in stuff without evidence of truth in those beliefs. At least I'm not wasting my life believing in delusion.

There are no livable planets other than Earth. Scientists believe they have found life on other planets, and you get these idiot U.F.O fanatics that believe they are talking about aliens. lol.

Yeah you do get some weird U.F.O fanatics. But they don't speak for science. Scientists simply say that because of the size of the universe, It would probably be highly improbable for life to not exist on ANY planet other than our own.

Where did you come to that conclusion? Do you know how absurd that makes you look?

to the contrary. I have explained the burden of proof to you many times and you still don't understand it. I've told you several times already how I've come to that conclusion. But you have either completely misunderstood me or you've just ignored me. How absurd do you think that makes you look to suggest I'm absurd when I've explained how I've come to that conclusion many times before, but you have either ignored me or not understood me? And also, by the way, God is highly improbable because he requires a much bigger explanation than the one he is supposed to give. If the universe can be created by a superbeing and its improbable if this WASN'T so. How improbable is it that such a superbeing just came from nowhere? A God capable of designing a highly complex and improbable universe would have to be much much more improbable and complex himself.

And you know this.. how? What scientist blessed you with such vast knowledge about our Universe?

There's no scientific evidence. Scientists who believe in God tend to think God is seperate from evidence. But thats silly because I could then say that Zeus is separate from evidence. Would that mean that Zeus could easily exist? That he's probable? No. There's no evidence and he's highly improbable.

Sorry, but the universe being created from nothing is highly improbable.

I'm not saying that it was created from nothing. I'm saying that whereever the univese comes from; its much more likely that it developed naturally from something simple with no mind and intelligence. Than it was created by something far more complex and improbable than the universe itself.

It's been proven. Just open your eyes..

Your simply proclaiming that. You haven't given me a shred of evidence yet.

No, it's not about taking the bible literally, it's called, "people cannot translate ancient writing with modern english." For instance, I had an atheist tell me, "Jesus said we MUST HATE our parents in order to be his Disciple!" I cannot begin to explain how absurd that looks! Jesus used the word, "Sin'ah" in that verse, and Sin'ah means, "To Love lesser than." All Jesus was saying is, "we are to place God before anyone."

Well your interpretation here is literal then if that's what it actually says, isn't it? I'm not talking about misunderstanding the bible. I'm talking about actually believing what it says in the bible. And not simply cherry-picking. Whenever you cherry pick that's because you don't actually believe, or want to believe the bad parts isn't it? So thats not truly believing what the bible says. Its picking and choosing.

I haven't. Gee, maybe I'm not a true Disciple?

I'm not saying that you literally believe the whole thing, that you're a fundamentalist. Some things at least you appear to believe. And the point is that you pick and choose. You don't believe the whole thing. These people do, they are not mistaken. They believe the whole thing, they believe all of God's world. That's what truly believing is like. Not just cherry-picking whatever you want. Its obviously a good job you do cherry-pick! But that's not truly believing the bible then is it?

If you lived in ancient Israel, you would have followed the same laws. Don't play that card with me, it won't work. Of course human civilization has changed in the last 4,000 years. lol. Why are you comparing Apples to Oranges?

The point is you don't believe the whole thing then. You cherry-pick. So morality is not in the bible its in people. God's word doesn't mean shit. You just reject the nasty ideas in it out of your own free will. Its got nothing to do with "God".

Actually, Yes he did. When it came to war and fighting, and unjustified killings. Jesus told his people, "You have heard it in the past that you are to hate your enemies, but verily I say unto you, Love your enemies, and pray for those who curse you."

But he also said in Matthew 5:17: " Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil" and 5:18: "For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled." From the King James Bible.

I believe every single entire word of the bible, but I also believe it was written for ancient man, and they were commanded by God to do whatever it takes to protect their land.

You really think thats the best an omniscient being could come up with? You think that was appropriate for the times? Don't you think without all the horror in the bible it would have been a better book? And if it actually got its priorities right it would have been a better book?

The Holy Bible has over 330 fulfilled prophecies to date. That is outstanding! No wonder it's the number one selling book in the history of mankind.

What prophecies have been fullfied exactly? And do you include all the horrible stuff that the bible approves of?

Define 'Cherry Picking.' Because I show verses in the bible that express Love and Compassion? And you believe that is considered "cherry picking?" What about you? I'm sure atheists are not guilty of doing that!! No way!!!

by pick and choose I mean rather than just believing every word of the bible and approving of all the propositions in it, including the horrible ones. You just pick the stuff you like and throw out the bad. Yes I of course do that, but I not only admit that, but I don't actually believe any of the nonsense. I merely look at things like the golden rule and think "thats nice, not the word of God but its still nice, and its not original to Jesus". I don't claim that it knows what its talking about and then just choose the stuff I want to actually believe and throw out the stuff that I don't believe. I don't believe in the truth of any of it. And I'm honest about that.

I believe everything written in the bible has a purpose. Ancient man was describing their culture. Who are YOU to judge them? They lived thousands and thousands of years ago... why are you so affected by this?

Why do you believe it has a purpose? And by the way, sorry, I typoed I didn't mean to say "do you think faith belief=belief?" I meant "do you think fake belief=belief." That you can just choose belief. Belief is not a matter of policy, so why do you believe it has a purpose? I'll tell you why I can judge them, because there's no reason to believe them. They're just making stupid claims about the supernatural that they have not given any evidence of. You STILL don't understand the burden of proof.

I believe God commited mass-genocide in the O.T. I'm not ashamed of that. He warned people over and over, and they didn't listen.. so he took care of business, as usual.

Not only is there no evidence of God inside or outside of the bible. But you're actually advocating this? You're approving of this? If God existed you think he would be right to commit mass-genocide because people won't listen to him? That's f**king unbelievably immoral.

I cannot count how many times you called me "delusional" in this post.. But I gotta warn you, flattery won't work.

Well sorry but your beliefs certainly come across as delusional. What you appear to be advocating often comes across as breathtakingly delusional. And if its flattering you, sure I'll persist because it certainly seems true given what you have said.

[Psalm 23]

I wasn't talking about eternal damnation. I don't care what Jesus was saying. I just think "the truth will set you free".

You don't care what Jesus said, but you live by his quote?

I'm honest about my cherry-picking. The difference is I don't actually believe in the truth of God, miracles or the supernatural of any kind. And I know HOW I choose nice bits. Its not because of the bible, God, Jesus, miracles, the supernatural, etc. Its because of me.

You're honest about cherry picking? Well, that's odd, I would like to see the verses you have displayed in this forum that show how God has an eternal plan for his believers.

Thats not what I said though is it? I said IF we can I think we should give it up. Not that everyone's gonna suddenly turn atheist.

That's correct. Someone is not going to give up their faith in God so easily. We are living in a world that needs God more than ever.

I don't claim to 100% know there is no God. I claim that God's extremely improbable. I believe in any God for the same reason I don't believe in Zeus. No evidence.

Why should you demand evidence to have faith in the supernatural? If evidence was provided of this 'supernatural' being, then he wouldn't be supernatural.

The burden of proof is on the believer. AGAIN you completely misunderstand the burden of proof.

I'm sorry, but you seem confused. Believing in God doesn't mean I have to prove he exists.

Well then you have completely contradicted yourself. Because my whole point was I was criticising the fact that you said that abogenesis can't be right because life can't just come from non-life.

Do you believe within these atoms stored all of the information that was needed to create the Universe and all life form?

Why would you need a God to do this? Wouldn't postulating an extremely complex and improbable designer of which there is no evidence of and who then makes stuff with atoms, to be more improbable than to simply cut the God part out?

There is a little more to the creation of the Universe than just atoms.

The God explanation creates a far bigger and more improbable problem that the one it solves. You're simply making it much much more improbable.

I have ancient texts that reveal the information to us. "God prepared the worlds (universe) with materials that cannot be seen." How much more evidence do you want?

Me anyway, at least. I cannot speak for others Its not remotely evidence of God or the truth of the bible. If you consider that evidence then I have no idea how you can justify simply proclaiming to have used to be like me and ask the same questions as me.

When I see your questions and supposed errors.. it's almost like looking into the mirror 10 years ago.

That's in no way to say that there's any reason that it will actually happen. Its just another claim based upon zero evidence.

I don't need evidence to believe in something. You believe there will be no "second coming." How did you gather the information and evidence to disbelieve so easily?

Like you just said. Glorious for the believers. So if you believe that then that wouldn't include atheists now would it?

Don't play the blame-game. You have choosen your fate.

So thats highly immoral for a start. The whole thing is selfish.

Yea, real selfish.. we are the ones that came to your door to teach you about God, and you slam the door in our face, but when it comes time to pay the piper, you call foul! How's selfish now?

And does this just mean believers in your God, in Christianity, or in all religions? And like you said "believers" so its immoral to not include atheists. And like I said no evidence.

There is only 1 God. Don't you know these other so-called ancient gods were just mere men claiming god like strength? These men have died and gone.. And their followers are pretty much banished.

Hey, thats simply a matter of swearing. And wtf are you talking about? I censored it!!! Some people here don't, at least so much. Would you rather I didn't censor?

You used the Lord's name in Vain. That hardly strenghtens your argument against God.

You just dismissed those God's without a shred of evidence. Sorry but guess what - you're an atheist about Zeus for example, as I am about your God.

lol. No, sorry, but atheist means, 'The denial of God, and or gods." I have chosen a God, that hardly labels me as an atheist towards Zeus, because Zeus was not a god. He was nothing more than a mortal man.

They were not Gods, they were just men claiming god-like divinity, indeed. Same goes for your God, Its just what you believe, there is no evidence for it. If there is, please give me some. if you can! Its just bullshit as far as I'm concerned.

Actually, tons and tons of external sources back up the Jesus story.

No evidence. I'm not risking my afterlife anymore than you are. Pascal's wager falls on its face completely. At least I'm not spending my life believing in stuff without evidence of truth in those beliefs. At least I'm not wasting my life believing in delusion.

There is only one God, and I have chosen to worship him. You on the other hand claim no God belief. That puts you at a high risk.

Yeah you do get some weird U.F.O fanatics. But they don't speak for science. Scientists simply say that because of the size of the universe, It would probably be highly improbable for life to not exist on ANY planet other than our own.

The "Life on other planets" is talking about Algae and Bacteria..etc,etc,etc.

to the contrary. I have explained the burden of proof to you many times and you still don't understand it. I've told you several times already how I've come to that conclusion. But you have either completely misunderstood me or you've just ignored me.

No, actually, what you have done is give me nothing but a half-assed assertion why you don't believe in God. You cannot claim something like "there is no God" unless you have examined everything in the universe with fine detail. You have a lack of evidence issue as well.

God is highly improbable because he requires a much bigger explanation than the one he is supposed to give. If the universe can be created by a superbeing and its improbable if this WASN'T so. How improbable is it that such a superbeing just came from nowhere? A God capable of designing a highly complex and improbable universe would have to be much much more improbable and complex himself.

First off, God has always been. He didn't just come into existence. Something made these atoms clash together and form this brilliance we call a universe. I'm sorry, but that is proof enough.. this life didn't happen by a random act of nature. Now let's discuss "Highly improbable."

There's no scientific evidence. Scientists who believe in God tend to think God is seperate from evidence. But thats silly because I could then say that Zeus is separate from evidence. Would that mean that Zeus could easily exist? That he's probable? No. There's no evidence and he's highly improbable.

You are sure defending this 'Zeus' character alot. Zues was NOT God! He was a man that had a wife, kids, a dog.. and then he died, and he was never seen again.

I'm not saying that it was created from nothing. I'm saying that whereever the univese comes from; its much more likely that it developed naturally from something simple with no mind and intelligence.

No intelligence was needed to prepare the universe, huh? Do you say the same about the engineers that assembled your vehicle? Or do you believe your vehicle was created from nothingness, by nothingness?

Well your interpretation here is literal then if that's what it actually says, isn't it? I'm not talking about misunderstanding the bible. I'm talking about actually believing what it says in the bible. And not simply cherry-picking.

Let's talk about "cherry picking." I had an atheist tell me, "Jesus said we are to kill those who do not worship Jesus as their King!" Luke 19:27. Do you know how ridiculous that appears? If you start reading from Luke 19:1, you will clearly see that Jesus was telling a story about someone else. This is cherry picking at it's finest.

Whenever you cherry pick that's because you don't actually believe, or want to believe the bad parts isn't it? So thats not truly believing what the bible says. Its picking and choosing.

I just handed you what 'cherry picking' really looks like.

The point is you don't believe the whole thing then. You cherry-pick. So morality is not in the bible its in people. God's word doesn't mean shit. You just reject the nasty ideas in it out of your own free will. Its got nothing to do with "God"

I believe the whole Bible is the literal word of God. Do I believe it has been mistranslated and misunderstood? Yes! More than any book in the world!!

But he also said in Matthew 5:17: " Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil" and 5:18: "For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled." From the King James Bible.

What Laws do you think Yeshua was talking about?

You really think thats the best an omniscient being could come up with? You think that was appropriate for the times? Don't you think without all the horror in the bible it would have been a better book? And if it actually got its priorities right it would have been a better book?

Well, according to many skeptics, the bible was a carefully put together book.. so why didn't they leave out the "horror?"

What prophecies have been fullfied exactly? And do you include all the horrible stuff that the bible approves of?

Do you honestly want me to list all 300 prophecies? The Jews will regain their land. (1948-Present), The city of Tyre would be destroyed and never rebuilt! The ancient City of Tyre was never rebuilt, but a new city called "Sur" sits on top of the ruins of ancient Tyre.

by pick and choose I mean rather than just believing every word of the bible and approving of all the propositions in it, including the horrible ones. You just pick the stuff you like and throw out the bad.

Where did I throw out the bad verses? I didn't know the bible contained "bad verses?" Just because the ancient Jews engaged in war and violence, do you call that the "bad verses?"

Why do you believe it has a purpose? And by the way, sorry, I typoed I didn't mean to say "do you think faith belief=belief?" I meant "do you think fake belief=belief."

Fake belief like Muslims dying for Allah?

That you can just choose belief. Belief is not a matter of policy, so why do you believe it has a purpose?

Belief has a purpose today just the same as it did 5,000 years ago.

I'll tell you why I can judge them, because there's no reason to believe them. They're just making stupid claims about the supernatural that they have not given any evidence of.

You would have to prove them wrong in order to make that claim.

You STILL don't understand the burden of proof.

I understand that you live in a fantasy world. You "believe" there is no God, but you don't have any evidence to back up your claim? So, how can you believe there is no God without evidence? I thought atheists always demanded evidence before they can believe in something?

Not only is there no evidence of God inside or outside of the bible.

Goto Israel if you want evidence of God outside of the bible.

But you're actually advocating this? You're approving of this? If God existed you think he would be right to commit mass-genocide because people won't listen to him? That's f**king unbelievably immoral.

Yes, I do approve of it! Jehovah warned the pagans to stop sacrificing their children in the name of their gods.

Well sorry but your beliefs certainly come across as delusional. What you appear to be advocating often comes across as breathtakingly delusional. And if its flattering you, sure I'll persist because it certainly seems true given what you have said.

That's fine, you can believe I'm delusional. But what does that say about someone like you that believes everything happened by chance? You have better odds at hitting the State Powerball Lottery 50,000 times back to back.

[Ace Otana]

There is only 1 God. Don't you know these other so-called ancient gods were just mere men claiming god like strength? These men have died and gone.. And their followers are pretty much banished.

Your religion has the same fate as it will fall like all the others, all religions die. Anyway, the ancient gods were just a much gods as todays ones. They do count.

Also the bible does not class as evidence.

Atheists do not take risks by not believing since there are so many gods and none of them have any evidence to back up their existence. Nothing in this world supports the claim and so this is reason enough to turn our backs on it.

There is always a thrid option, which is simply to not take part in any of it. Where god or not, I want nothing to do with it.
You say there is a god, well I await your evidence...

[Ace Otana]

I understand that you live in a fantasy world. You "believe" there is no God, but you don't have any evidence to back up your claim? So, how can you believe there is no God without evidence? I thought atheists always demanded evidence before they can believe in something?

WRONG!

The burden of proof is on you.

We don't have any claims. You do. You claimed there is a god we simply reject it. It is very much up to us if we believe you or not. Which we don't.

You cannot expect atheists to dis-prove everything. The burden of proof is on the one making the claim.

What in this world says there is a god? According to what I see, there is no such thing as a god. This is not claiming, this is rejecting the claim. Your claiming it, we are rejecting it.

The burden of proof is on the one making the claim.

[Darwinian]

I think that we should all tackle one of the points raised here and see where we get..

I'm going with this one.

That's fine, you can believe I'm delusional. But what does that say about someone like you that believes everything happened by chance? You have better odds at hitting the State Powerball Lottery 50,000 times back to back.

I presume here that we are talking about the origin of life and the chance that random chemicals could somehow arrange themselves into living, self replicating organisms.

Well, Given that there are at least 10^21 stars in the universe and probably 10 times the number of planets then I would say that the chances of life appearing are far, far greater than winning the lottery 50,000 in a trot. What I think you fail to grasp here is the sheer scale of the Universe and not only that but the unimaginable length of time that 'chance' has to work across this immense platform.

When you begin to understand that then life popping up all over the place by chance alone makes perfect sense.

[Ace Otana]

Since he does not understand the burden of proof I thought I should give him this. http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=ftejJ9nlDF...re=related

Hopefully this will get him to understand

[Tiberius]

I'll do this one:

No, actually, what you have done is give me nothing but a half-assed assertion why you don't believe in God. You cannot claim something like "there is no God" unless you have examined everything in the universe with fine detail. You have a lack of evidence issue as well.

Firstly, none of us are claiming "there is no God". We are simply saying we don't believe in it. You don't have to have any evidence to reject an idea that has no evidence in favour of it.

For example, if I were to say that I was 15 foot tall, you would probably disbelieve me. Your reasons are simple: There have been no people alive that grow to 15 foot tall, and you have seen no picture of me standing up. There is a lack of evidence to back up my claim.

You claim that there is a God, and that you believe in it. I ask for the evidence of such a being. So far, nobody has been able to show me any evidence that a God exists, unless you count it existing in the minds of believers. What is the best evidence of God? Please show me some and it will convince me!

[Edwardo Piet]

Ok since several of us are on to him now I'll just answer the one quote, I choose this one:

Don't play the blame-game. You have choosen your fate.

I am simply saying that atheists deny God. But the thing is atheists are NOT people who deny God. They are people who don't believe in God. And in my case at least, why don't I believe? No evidence.
No evidence should be a reason NOT to believe. Not a reason to believe strongly!

[Ace Otana]

I'm going to pick on this one here -

You are sure defending this 'Zeus' character alot. Zues was NOT God! He was a man that had a wife, kids, a dog.. and then he died, and he was never seen again.

Jesus was also man who died and was never seen again. Hmm....maybe there is a little similarity between them?

There were both men, they were both believed to be gods, they both died and they both were never seen again.

Funny how religions have some remarkable similarities.

So what's the differance? Both mortal, both non-god, both died and both never seen or heard of again because they both no longer exist. That's because death is just the ending of biological function and both these charactors are biological. They no longer exist as we will face one day.

[Purple Rabbit]

There is only 1 God. Don't you know these other so-called ancient gods were just mere men claiming god like strength? These men have died and gone.. And their followers are pretty much banished.

You are wrong there.
Zeus wasn't/isn't a man claiming godlike strength.
Ahura Mazda (zoroastrianism) wasn't/isn't a man claiming godlike strength.
Allah wasn't/isn't a man claiming godlike strength.
Vishnu wasn't/isn't a man claiming godlike strength.
These are all gods.

You cannot prove in an absolute sense that there is only one god and that it coincides with your image of your god. That strictly relies on your faith. Likewise analogous claims from believers of other creed only rely on their faith. Faith itself has no mechanism to resolve competing claims between two or more faiths. Faith cannot even satisfyingly settle any new metaphysical claims on the origin of the universe. Maybe the universe was created by a malicious purple rabbit in the 27th dimension. The 'faith method' cannot debunk this claim, because every religion itself is based on unfalsifiable dogma, i.e. things not to be questioned but to be accepted on faith alone.