The "not all Muslims are terrorists" fallacy

[TheRocketSurgeon]

Catholic - The guys in the video you posted talk about exactly that difference, and sum up our position on it pretty effectively.

[Catholic_Lady]

Catholic - The guys in the video you posted talk about exactly that difference, and sum up our position on it pretty effectively.

I can promise you, if/when I hear about a Catholic group/organization saying that Jesus wants them to torture/rape/murder people, I'll be the first to stand up and condemn the behavior.  

Of course there are bad apples everywhere, but when 20% of people in your faith think this is what God wants them to do, there's a huge problem, and one that needs to be addressed.

[TheRocketSurgeon]

Catholic - The guys in the video you posted talk about exactly that difference, and sum up our position on it pretty effectively.

I can promise you, if/when I hear about a Catholic group/organization saying that Jesus wants them to torture/rape/murder people, I'll be the first to stand up and condemn the behavior.  

Of course there are bad apples everywhere, but when 20% of people in your faith think this is what God wants them to do, there's a huge problem, and one that needs to be addressed.

Respectfully, I think you're taking for granted that you have the POWER (being a full member of western civilization, which over time has neutered the Catholic Church's ability to harm you for condemning the behavior... it's one of the reasons we "twitch" when talking about monuments to the power of the church) to attack members of your faith who do that.

Could you have condemned them, for instance, during the Inquisition?

I'm not trying to make your faith look bad for having had the Inquisition; I'm pointing out that the ability of the decent common-believer to stop the fanatics disappears once the number of fanatics reaches a certain percent of their population, and once the zealots attain a certain degree of fear/power/control.

As I said, your video does a good job of pointing out our objections to Islam, and why we have them. But we see all "True Believer" faiths to have equal potential. But in the case of Islam, they're definitely suffering (and we are suffering as a result) from an overpowering amount of death-cult medievalism in their social circles and societies.

[Catholic_Lady]

I can promise you, if/when I hear about a Catholic group/organization saying that Jesus wants them to torture/rape/murder people, I'll be the first to stand up and condemn the behavior.  

Of course there are bad apples everywhere, but when 20% of people in your faith think this is what God wants them to do, there's a huge problem, and one that needs to be addressed.

Respectfully, I think you're taking for granted that you have the POWER (being a full member of western civilization, which over time has neutered the Catholic Church's ability to harm you for condemning the behavior... it's one of the reasons we "twitch" when talking about monuments to the power of the church) to attack members of your faith who do that.

Could you have condemned them, for instance, during the Inquisition?

I'm not trying to make your faith look bad for having had the Inquisition; I'm pointing out that the ability of the decent common-believer to stop the fanatics disappears once the number of fanatics reaches a certain percent of their population, and once the zealots attain a certain degree of fear/power/control.

As I said, your video does a good job of pointing out our objections to Islam, and why we have them. But we see all "True Believer" faiths to have equal potential. But in the case of Islam, they're definitely suffering (and we are suffering as a result) from an overpowering amount of death-cult medievalism in their social circles and societies.

I don't know if I'd have the courage to stand up publicly if I were alive during the Inquisition. I like to think I would, but it's impossible to tell. But there are plenty of Muslims in the Western world who have nothing to fear by standing up. And yet when confronted, the first thing many of them choose to do is get defensive.

[TheRocketSurgeon]

I don't know if I'd have the courage to stand up publicly if I were alive during the Inquisition. I like to think I would, but it's impossible to tell. But there are plenty of Muslims in the Western world who have nothing to fear by standing up. And yet when confronted, the first thing many of them choose to do is get defensive.

They don't objectively have "nothing to fear", in the sense that they no longer live in oppressive theocracies, but that doesn't necessarily mean free of violence.* (More joy out of Birmingham.) And even without violence, social pressure is very real to people.

*Quote from article: "They may also be particularly vulnerable to abuse as they can be blackmailed into keeping quiet because of the risk of ‘bringing shame’ on a community, she added.When abuse is revealed some families are more likely to send the daughter abroad or hastily arrange a wedding to get rid of the problem rather than face it, the report claims.‘The biggest barrier that we need to address is the shame and honour card,’ Ms Gohir said.‘They would rather protect the honour of the family and community than report an offender and protect other girls...".

[Napoléon]

20% of Catholics aren't out there murdering, torturing, and raping people (or supporting these behaviors) on the grounds that it's what Jesus wants them to do. You alluded to this yourself, but I still knew a comment like this was coming.

No, you're right. Your own figurehead and organisation is harbouring paedophiles. Guess that's much better to swallow right?

And I see you're careful to put "on the grounds that it's what Jesus wants them to do". Identify with them for the good, but use this nice easy cop-out for the bad.

Besides, 20% of muslims aren't out there murdering, torturing and raping either, that wasn't the actual point I made, or that anyone made. They're just slightly more brazen about their support of such extremist views than Christians are in the modern world, it seems.

And you're right to predict the comment, even if you think it rude or predictable of me to bring up. I find it to be cognitive dissonance on your part to condemn the actions of muslims while at the same time calling yourself a Catholic.

Don't get me wrong, I'm sure you don't condone the countless cases of paedophilia the Catholic church has played its part in, I'm sure if pressed you'd speak out against such barbarity. But I still find it hypocritical to be so OK with it as to still identify with a blatantly vile organisation while at the same time condemning muslims and Islam in general.

Why is it you can see the evil effects of other religions so clearly but not your own?

Don't answer, I can already envision the argument and it would not be something I find agreeable anyway.

I hope my flippancy doesn't get in the way of the point I'm making.

[Catholic_Lady]

20% of Catholics aren't out there murdering, torturing, and raping people (or supporting these behaviors) on the grounds that it's what Jesus wants them to do. You alluded to this yourself, but I still knew a comment like this was coming.

No, you're right. Your own figurehead and organisation is harbouring paedophiles. Guess that's much better to swallow right?

Besides, 20% of muslims aren't out there murdering, torturing and raping either, that wasn't the actual point I made, or that anyone made. They're just slightly more brazen about their support of such extremist views than Christians are in the modern world, it seems.

And you're right to predict the comment, even if you think it rude of me to bring up. I find it to be cognitive dissonance on your part to condemn the actions of muslims while at the same time calling yourself a Catholic.

Don't get me wrong, I'm sure you don't condone the countless cases of paedophilia the Catholic church has played its part in, I'm sure if pressed you'd speak out against such barbarity. But I still find it hypocritical to be so OK with it as to still identify with a blatantly vile organisation while at the same time condemning muslims and Islam in general.

Why is it you can see the evil effects of other religions so clearly but not your own?

Don't answer, I can already envision the argument and it would not be something I find agreeable anyway.

I hope my flippancy doesn't get in the way of the point I'm making.

Ok. But if you're going to make a post addressing me/about me, then I'm not sure why you think it's right to tell me not to respond to it.

[Catholic_Lady]

I don't know if I'd have the courage to stand up publicly if I were alive during the Inquisition. I like to think I would, but it's impossible to tell. But there are plenty of Muslims in the Western world who have nothing to fear by standing up. And yet when confronted, the first thing many of them choose to do is get defensive.

They don't objectively have "nothing to fear", in the sense that they no longer live in oppressive theocracies, but that doesn't necessarily mean free of violence.* (More joy out of Birmingham.) And even without violence, social pressure is very real to people.

*Quote from article: "They may also be particularly vulnerable to abuse as they can be blackmailed into keeping quiet because of the risk of ‘bringing shame’ on a community, she added.When abuse is revealed some families are more likely to send the daughter abroad or hastily arrange a wedding to get rid of the problem rather than face it, the report claims.‘The biggest barrier that we need to address is the shame and honour card,’ Ms Gohir said.‘They would rather protect the honour of the family and community than report an offender and protect other girls...".

Well then that's also the problem though. Why stay in a faith that you would feel threatened by (whether physically or socially) for not standing up against murder/torture/rape of innocent people?? To me, that's a big problem.

[Napoléon]

Ok. But if you're going to make a post addressing me/about me, then I'm not sure why you think it's right to tell me not to respond to it.

This is why I find you so infuriating to talk to. You become so concerned with pedantry that any semblance of a point goes straight over your head.

I never said don't answer my post, or my point. I said don't answer that one question contained within because I predict that the answer you'd give wouldn't be something I find agreeable anyway. It's not that question that is the point of my post, which is precisely why I told you not to answer that question.

But if you can't figure out the actual point on your own then don't bother responding. Not because I'm telling you not to respond, but because it's only wasting everyone's time.

[TheRocketSurgeon]

Because 1) it's their family and community, and they belong to that community in a way that it's harder for individualist Americans to grasp, outside of our own communities that do the same. They're a part of it. And 2) they don't want to leave the religion, they just want to be faithful the best way they know how. Unfortunately, there's some really awful baggage that accompanies that particular social club.

What are they going to do, convert to another faith they don't believe in? Become atheists?

I mean, we'd be glad to see that happening, but I doubt you'd convert from Catholicism if the church was doing significantly more wrong than they do, especially if your family was likely to try to find and kill you if you did.