Abortion is love

[Longhorn]

And why did your god make Becca unable to be healthily pregnant at all? Wouldn't that basically more or less mean a 100% chance of an abortion (and birth control is bad apparently)?

[Won2blv]

Won2b: That's the even more stupid thing, no one has dislodged my logic in the slightest, so yes this is a major win for the child. The fact that God will turn around and call the best thing you can do for them murder shows the whole system is arse fucked. You could call it end justifying the means, sure. But the stakes are so high it seems ridiculous to take any other course of action if you really believe what you say you believe. The fact that people won't even consider this form of action is lots of evidence that they have reasonable doubts at least.

People want to believe this stuff, and maybe they convince themselves they do believe it. But actions, baby. Actions speak the loudest.

GC didn't tell me what happens to murdered babies, did he? Or did I miss or? Or actually address my points at all.

PS: Let me make an analogy. You're about to sit down to a massive meal, with thousands of courses. You have two options:

1) Start at the first main course. All your courses, including this first one, are guaranteed to be perfectly delicious.

2) Have a starter first. The starter isn't nearly as good as the main courses, in fact there will be horrible bits in it too. Also, if you have the starter, there's a good chance that the rest of the thousands of following courses will all be absolutely disgusting but you must eat them anyway. Or they might all be delicious as in choice 1.

Which would you chose? Which would you want a friend to choose for you, if the choose had to be made on your behalf?

This is the problem with your logic rob... often times as nice of a person you are, you will draw rigid boundaries for what a "theist" is or is not. I have noticed this is often the straw manning that atheist will do when making certain logical arguments. As I pointed out, your reasoning most certainly commits the end justifying the means fallacy. But aside from that, from my religious background (which I think is more logical and scripturally based) Heaven is not the ultimate reward. But rather having a pure relationship with god that includes living forever ON EARTH not heaven. And no individual can honestly say that they are glorifying the name of god if they killed their baby to give it a heavenly reward or an earthly one. Especially if they believe it'll bring shame on their gods name. I think the key is looking at things from other people points of view. It doesn't mean that you're conceding their points but rather it helps us to truly be more open progressive people

[Catholic_Lady]

Oh, sorry.   

I'd say you were lucky in the sense that you did not have to go through the procedure that you intended to go through anyway. I don't see how this does not make both your lives equal, though, as one person's luck might mean someone else's misfortune. Yes, I believe God created you, but I also believe in free will. I don't think that just because God gave me free will, for example, that everything I do is/will be morally good.

Are you kidding? I did have to go through the abortion. The *fetus* (not person; not baby) died in my womb, but I didn't miscarry so I still had to have the abortion. As someone who has had surgeries, tattoos, broken bones, aborting a four-month-old dead fetus was one of the most painful things I've ever gone through, and I'm not talking about emotional pain; I'm talking about physical agony. When I asked if I just "got lucky", I was being tongue-in-cheek.

But you didn't answer the question. If both lives were equal, and we both had free will, why did your god choose to let me get pregnant (even with no chance of carrying to term), hang on to the fetus for four months, let it die, and then have me go through the painful procedure of having an abortion? Where's the equality and free will there?

I apologize. I assumed maybe the procedure would be different since he/she had already died. Sorry you had to go through that. 

As for your second question, this is a question of why certain things happen the way they do if there is a God. My belief is that God is not a micromanager, and that He allows nature it take its course.

[Longhorn]

So he's an asshole who lets fetuses die but somehow still gets pissed if a woman aborts. I....what.

[Losty]

@CL- You're not understanding what I am saying. In the incidence where someone you love is trying to kill a stranger. If you defend that stranger at the cost of your loved one's life, you have valued the life of the stranger over your loved one. You wouldn't be wrong to do that, it makes sense to value the lives of innocent people over the lives of murderers or attemptive murderers. But I think you once said that it's not okay to end one life to save another one and now you're saying it is.

I see it differently, Losty. I see self defense as justice, not as saying one life is more important than the other life. 

As for your last part, I said "an innocent life." I don't think it's right to kill one innocent person to save another innocent person. Let's say you're in the military and a group of terrorists captured you and your fellow soldier. As a way to torture you, they hold a gun up to your head and say, "kill your partner, otherwise we kill you." This stuff actually happens. Objectively speaking, I still think it would be wrong to kill your partner. I wouldn't cast any judgement on you because of the extremely difficult/impossible position you were in, though.

I assume you wouldn't cast judgement at all right?

It looks like you are saying that innocent lives are more valuable than those lives of people who are not innocent. Sure...you can call it justice if you want to, but it makes no sense to say you're justified in taking a person's life if that person's life is equal to yours in value. Innocent or not, if you justify killing a person then you don't value their life as much as whomever you are protecting them from.

Personally, I don't think it would be morally wrong to kill someone under duress, but I don't think I could do it.

[rexbeccarox]

I'm going to stop being tenacious here. You're obviously going to dodge everything I ask, so there's no point.

Edit: that was directed at C_L.

[rexbeccarox]

So he's an asshole who lets fetuses die but somehow still gets pissed if a woman aborts. I....what.

Even if it could kill that woman to carry.

[Catholic_Lady]

I'm going to stop being tenacious here. You're obviously going to dodge everything I ask, so there's no point.

Edit: that was directed at C_L.

I must have misunderstood your questions then, Becca. I did not mean to dodge them.

[Catholic_Lady]

I see it differently, Losty. I see self defense as justice, not as saying one life is more important than the other life. 

As for your last part, I said "an innocent life." I don't think it's right to kill one innocent person to save another innocent person. Let's say you're in the military and a group of terrorists captured you and your fellow soldier. As a way to torture you, they hold a gun up to your head and say, "kill your partner, otherwise we kill you." This stuff actually happens. Objectively speaking, I still think it would be wrong to kill your partner. I wouldn't cast any judgement on you because of the extremely difficult/impossible position you were in, though.

I assume you wouldn't cast judgement at right?

It looks like you are saying that innocent lives are more valuable than those lives of people who are not innocent. Sure...you can call it justice if you want to, but it makes no sense to say you're justified in taking a person's life if that person's life is equal to yours in value. Innocent or not, if you justify killing a person then you don't value their life as much as whomever you are protecting them from.

Personally, I don't think it would be morally wrong to kill someone under duress, but I don't think I could do it.

I don't think so. If that was the case, I would be all for the death penalty, but I am not.

[Longhorn]

So he's an asshole who lets fetuses die but somehow still gets pissed if a woman aborts. I....what.

Even if it could kill that woman to carry.

Thus rendering the equality of all lives argument invalid.

Gee, it sounds like something males in power might make up to keep women in their place..... naaah