Abortion is love

[Kingpin]

He did, but that's a theological discussion.  

I have 3 children from 4 pregnancies. If I got pregnant again my fetus would have a significantly less amount of potential for survival that my first to pregnancies, and somewhat less than my fourth pregnancy. That's just considering the biological implications because I know you will spout on about free will if I start talking about how the potential was effected by my exhusband.

If god believes all lives to be equal then it makes no sense for him to allow pregnancy in a woman whose body cannot support a pregnancy. If he allows such a pregnancy then it seems that he doesn't value the life of the woman or the fetus as much as he does other lives. I mean...god is supposed to know you and love you before he creates you in your mothers womb, but if he really loved you'd he'd have found a safer womb to stick you in right?

Losty, I won't pretend to have the answer to everything and anything I say, please take it as my opinion and interpretation stemming from my worldview.  I believe we live in a fallen world.  I have experienced first hand the loss of a child as well (wife had two miscarriages).  There are many things in this life that make us question, "why".  My mother died when I was 8 years old.  I watched her die with my own eyes.  Why?  There is much more to my personal story than just that, but we ALL experience things that make us ask why, and I will be honest and say we may never get an answer that will satisfy us.  But, I also believe there is redemption from this life and hope beyond.  However, I don't want to derail this discussion from it's OP.

[Losty]

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And yet you say a person is justified to kill someone in self defense...unless the "person" killing you is a fetus in which case it's no longer justified. I just don't see how you can say all life is equal if you think you can justify taking someone's life but not "someone" else's. It seems like a contradiction to me. Either all lives are equal or you can be justified in taking someone's life in certain circumstances. You cannot be justified in taking someone else's life unless their life has less value than yours. If their life has the same value as everyone else's then why can't all killing be justified?

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(JFTR, the reason I don't think it's justified in that case is because the fetus is not an instigator, but rather, he/she is another innocent bi standard.)  

Yes, I believe you can be justified in taking someone's life in certain circumstances, but not because their life is worth less than yours. Since it isn't. So yes, killing can be justifiable, but not for the reason that one life is worth more than the other. But rather, because you have the right to defend your own life (or someone else's) against an instigator. Because you have the right to life, if someone else is deliberately trying to take that away, you have the right to do whatever is necessary (but only what is necessary) to stop them. 

Perhaps it is your belief that the reason it's justified to kill someone who is trying to kill you, is because their life is worth less. But that is not my reason.

That's not the reason, I get that. I just can't wrap my mind around you saying that you can justify killing someone but their life is still just as valuable as yours. That makes no sense. I also don't understand how you can say that it's okay because you have the right to life, but then turn around and say you only have a right to live if your killer is intentionally trying to kill you. My brain is spinning with how complicated you will make things just so you can justify the things you would do while still being able to condemn the things you wouldn't do.
It reminds me of a philosopher I learned about in highschool who said that people base their morals off of their actions and not the other way around. I'm going to have to try and figure out who that guy was.

[Catholic_Lady]

(JFTR, the reason I don't think it's justified in that case is because the fetus is not an instigator, but rather, he/she is another innocent bi standard.)  

Yes, I believe you can be justified in taking someone's life in certain circumstances, but not because their life is worth less than yours. Since it isn't. So yes, killing can be justifiable, but not for the reason that one life is worth more than the other. But rather, because you have the right to defend your own life (or someone else's) against an instigator. Because you have the right to life, if someone else is deliberately trying to take that away, you have the right to do whatever is necessary (but only what is necessary) to stop them. 

Perhaps it is your belief that the reason it's justified to kill someone who is trying to kill you, is because their life is worth less. But that is not my reason.

That's not the reason, I get that. I just can't wrap my mind around you saying that you can justify killing someone but their life is still just as valuable as yours. That makes no sense. I also don't understand how you can say that it's okay because you have the right to life, but then turn around and say you only have a right to live if your killer is intentionally trying to kill you. My brain is spinning with how complicated you will make things just so you can justify the things you would do while still being able to condemn the things you wouldn't do.
It reminds me of a philosopher I learned about in highschool who said that people base their morals off of their actions and not the other way around. I'm going to have to try and figure out who that guy was.

Losty, going back to the scenario I gave you about 2 soldiers being captured by terrorists, and one of them being told he can live so long as he kills his partner. Don't you think killing his partner in this scenario is different from killing his partner if his partner was trying to kill him? 

In one scenario, his partner is a completely innocent bi standard. In the second, he is the instigator. His life is worth the same in both scenarios, of course, but in the second scenario you are defending yourself from the person who is trying to kill you. In the first, you are killing a completely innocent person, just so you can have your own life.

[Losty]

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That's not the reason, I get that. I just can't wrap my mind around you saying that you can justify killing someone but their life is still just as valuable as yours. That makes no sense. I also don't understand how you can say that it's okay because you have the right to life, but then turn around and say you only have a right to live if your killer is intentionally trying to kill you. My brain is spinning with how complicated you will make things just so you can justify the things you would do while still being able to condemn the things you wouldn't do.
It reminds me of a philosopher I learned about in highschool who said that people base their morals off of their actions and not the other way around. I'm going to have to try and figure out who that guy was.

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Losty, going back to the scenario I gave you about 2 soldiers being captured by terrorists, and one of them being told he can live so long as he kills his partner. Don't you think killing his partner in this scenario is different from killing his partner if his partner was trying to kill him? 

Absolutely yes I do, but if he truly believes that his partners life is equal to his own, then I don't see how he could justify killing his partner in either circumstance.

[Catholic_Lady]

I have 3 children from 4 pregnancies. If I got pregnant again my fetus would have a significantly less amount of potential for survival that my first to pregnancies, and somewhat less than my fourth pregnancy. That's just considering the biological implications because I know you will spout on about free will if I start talking about how the potential was effected by my exhusband.

If god believes all lives to be equal then it makes no sense for him to allow pregnancy in a woman whose body cannot support a pregnancy. If he allows such a pregnancy then it seems that he doesn't value the life of the woman or the fetus as much as he does other lives. I mean...god is supposed to know you and love you before he creates you in your mothers womb, but if he really loved you'd he'd have found a safer womb to stick you in right?

Losty, I won't pretend to have the answer to everything and anything I say, please take it as my opinion and interpretation stemming from my worldview.  I believe we live in a fallen world.  I have experienced first hand the loss of a child as well (wife had two miscarriages).  There are many things in this life that make us question, "why".  My mother died when I was 8 years old.  I watched her die with my own eyes.  Why?  There is much more to my personal story than just that, but we ALL experience things that make us ask why, and I will be honest and say we may never get an answer that will satisfy us.  But, I also believe there is redemption from this life and hope beyond.  However, I don't want to derail this discussion from it's OP.

I agree. This is basically a question of why does God allow certain things to happen to people, if he loves us all. There is no simple answer to this, and all I can say is that God allows nature to take its course, knowing that in the end things will be made right.  

So sorry for your loss, btw. 

[Losty]

We may never have satisfactory answers as to why [insert horrible things that happen to people]...but god allows nature to take it's course he really does value your life. You just have to have faith.

....and that's when the debate ends because we are no longer having a rational conversation.

[John V]

If you're part of a religion such as Christianity or Islam, then aborting your children before they are born (or killing them just after they are born) is the most loving thing you can do for them.

First of all, you eliminate the risk that they might end up in hell by failing to follow the rules correctly.

Second, they go straight to heaven without any of the pain or heartache this life brings. They begin infinite happiness right away.

And third, it's insurance against them picking the wrong religion.

Even if we pretend there is definitely a god, and it's definitely either Yahweh or Allah, that means every Christian and Muslim is taking a risk. If they don't kill their baby, it might not go to heaven by picking wrong. You may be in the wrong religion and it may copy you, or you may be in the right religion and it may stray to another.

By killing it, the God can't say it picked wrong, so must send it to heaven! Even if you've picked wrong, in which case you're going to hell regardless, you save your child the same fate.

The ultimate act of love! So how can you object, and why don't you do it? Is it because you're hedging your bets in case the whole thing is actually made up?

Even if we accept your argument, you're missing that love of others is the second greatest commandment. The greatest is love of god, and he said to multiply and fill the earth.

Next stupid argument?

[Catholic_Lady]

We may never have satisfactory answers as to why [insert horrible things that happen to people]...but god allows nature to take it's course he really does value your life. You just have to have faith.

....and that's when the debate ends because we are no longer having a rational conversation.

And I'm completely ok with that. I'm not trying to "debate," in the sense that I'm trying to convince anyone to think like I do. Just trying to explain my point of view while trying to understand yours as well. 

Belief in God isn't something that I think can come via forum discussions, anyway, and I'd never try to pretend like it was. 

[John V]

If all lives were "given" the same value by some outside source, then it stands to reason that that source would give all lives the same amount of potential for survival....

All lives do have the same amount of potential for survival. From a worldly perspective, that potential is zero. Everything dies.

[Whateverist]

Even if we accept your argument, you're missing that love of others is the second greatest commandment. The greatest is love of god, and he said to multiply and fill the earth.

Oh for fuck's sake.  And haven't we already done that?  "And God said go forth and fill the petri dish.  Leave not one square inch to any other creature.  Cover the earth with humans and when it can't feed anymore, ship them to other habitable petri dishes and fill those.  Let no creature, neither terrestrial nor alien, abide where one more human being could be squeezed in."

Next stupid argument?

Your's.  This is the kind of stupidity which comes from looking to a holy book for marching orders and then abandoning all responsibility for your own actions and doing no moral reflection of your own.  

I hear there is a space ship behind an approaching comet.  May I suggest you get out of this body before you miss it?