Worthy of worship, free will?

[bennyboy]

Free will is an entirely incoherent concept it's so non-existent it cannot even be conceived to be existent..... it's not even an illusion it's an illusion of an illusion. When you think you are imagining it you are not even imagining it. Libertarian free will, when you really unpack what you think you mean you realize you don't even know what the fuck you're talking about.

To say that I would have done otherwise had I wanted to is simply to say that I would have lived in a different universe had I been in a different universe.

You obviously feel pretty strong about it.

And yet, today I stood in front of a candy rack, and I freely chose what candy I wanted.  /thread

[Edwardo Piet]

No you didn't you just chose because you were motivated ultimately from unconscious and unfree factors.

/doesn't get it.

[robvalue]

One of my friends proved he had free will to me once.

He dropped a pencil, then he said, "See?"

True story. I really didn't get his point.

[Edwardo Piet]

Well I would have probably got his point for a brief second until the pencil broke. Then it would have been rather pointless.

[bennyboy]

No you didn't you just chose because you were motivated ultimately from unconscious and unfree factors.

/doesn't get it.

See, you think the will = thinking.  But we already have a word for that-- "thinking."

And this is back to Mom not really, really being "Mom," and more importantly, me not being really, really "Me."  It is the interaction between the unconscious and conscious minds which define what it means to be human, and so all these unconscious "factors" are, after all, just part of the agency of self.  Study blood flow in the brain and see how the brain works?  Fine. . . you've learned that the will takes time to express itself as a conscious behavior.

[Edwardo Piet]

The will=willpower and "free will" can be considered a synonym for "free choice" the point is that your choices are not free.

and you seem to basically be saying

[bennyboy]

The will=willpower and "free will" can be considered a synonym for "free choice" the point is that your choices are not free.

and you seem to basically be saying (A puppet is free as long as he loves his strings).

No, I'm saying what you call strings are themselves a part of the self.  It is the self which is arguably the illusion, not the free will.

What do you think the will is supposed to be free from? Itself? The environment? The laws of causation? You are basically saying, "You're not really free, because you have to be you."

[Reforged]

One of my friends proved he had free will to me once.

He dropped a pencil, then he said, "See?"

True story. I really didn't get his point.

It was on the tip of the pencil.

[Edwardo Piet]

The will=willpower and "free will" can be considered a synonym for "free choice" the point is that your choices are not free.

and you seem to basically be saying (A puppet is free as long as he loves his strings).

No, I'm saying what you call strings are themselves a part of the self.  It is the self which is arguably the illusion, not the free will.

What do you think the will is supposed to be free from?  Itself?  The environment?  The laws of causation?  You are basically saying, "You're not really free, because you have to be you."

I am merely rejecting libertarian free will. Because it's absolutely ridiculous. I'm saying that the idea that we could have ultimately determined ourselves to do otherwise and that we are the ultimate causes of our actions is absurd. If determinism is true we can't have that power and if indeterminism is true we can't have that power.

[bennyboy]

I am merely rejecting libertarian free will. Because it's absolutely ridiculous.

Tell that to the Snickers Bar I chose in the candy aisle. . . freely, I can assure you.