Personal relationships with deities

[Losty]

The only personal relationship I have is with my right hand, I can prove the existence of my right hand, I don't need to pray to it, and it has never let me down.

Hehehe

[Losty]

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I have heard this SO many times.  I heard it as a child, with the instructions "pray to Jesus without ceasing, with an honest heart, and you too will have a personal relationship with him".  Well, I prayed.  And I prayed.  For more than forty years I prayed and begged and cried and praised (one preacher said "don't ask for anything, just tell God thank you for everything").  Not one hint of a voice, of a sense of a presence, of a sense of well-being or calm or . . . anything.  SO, of course, according to those who went around talking about their wonderful personal relationship with God, I was apparently doing it wrong - - - or I had evil in my heart - - - or I had sins I wasn't confessing - - - or _____.  

People not only use this to try and tell others in their group how holy and successful and prayerful they are, they use it to put other people down.   

I don't want to admit how long it took me to realize that they were a bunch of lying assholes.

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I thought we did a whole thread on this, and I was able to show you that what you called prayer infact wasn't. So the question then becomes have you even ever really prayed to God? Again asking God for stuff is not prayer it is supplication or petition. The bible is clear on what prayer is, it is you asking God to change your mind and your heart, rather than you trying to change his.

Who died and made you the ultimate decider of what counts as prayer? (Was it Jesus? Lol)

[Drich]

[quote='Drich' pid='1053297' dateline='1442500748']

I was going to chop all of this up, and feed it back to you but upon closer inspection I agree.

That said on the flip side of that coin once you have the confirmation you seek, what then do you think your responsibility/reaction should be?

And, I think that we went over this part too.

All of the whatever you ASK for in my name.. Or whatever you ASK for in prayer, will be given to you.

John 14:13-14, Mark 11:24, Matthew 21:22. Just keep picking and choosing, and dodging every biblical verse you can to try to convince yourself that, god doesn’t answer all prayers, or as you like to word them.. petitions. Clearly it says all petitions will be answered by jeebus.

Ah, no. The word for prayer in the Koine Greek is found in your verse scrap is:proseuchomai  this is the same proseuchomai found in Luke 11 where Jesus is teaching us what prayer is. (Meaning for God to change us to His will and not for us to ask for crap from God.)
http://www.blueletterbible.org/lang/lexi...4336&t=KJV

As for "Asking in My Name" is not the same as ending a wishing ceremony by saying in "Jesus Name I pray."
To ask in Jesus name is the same as speaking for someone. When you feel you know someone well enough to truly speak for them in essence you are saying you feel you know what they would say in a given situation. The same applies here sport. If you ask in Jesus' Name you are asking for whatever Jesus wants you to have. For those that don't know what Jesus wants you to have He spells it out right after he teaches us how to pray in LUKE 11
https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?se...rsion=NKJV

Seriously, what did you think it meant? That God would just start handing out winning lottery tickets because you d-bags thought you found a loop hole to hold God's feet to the fire on? What if your winning lotto ticket took you and your whole family further away from God than you are in your Atheism? Why would He grant your wish?

When you are handed these verses, what actually happens in your brain? Do you tell yourself that these verses don’t exist? Or what do you translate them to in your brain? Or do you go by something else that’s contradictory to these verses? You must.. Or was jesus only talking to Phillip, and Phillip alone. Will he only grant Phillip’s or his disciples’ prayers that were present, is that the kind of savior that you worship? How come everyone else doesn’t get their petitions answered (unless, of course, they will occur naturally, by themselves)?

No.. Unlike most of you I don't pretend to know something when I don't. The one thing all my various reading and learning disabilities taught me was take nothing for granted. That if I am going to be lacking in a basic cognitive function of written communication then I need to be beyond spot on in content and context. So when I come across a passage that sounds too good to be true like 'ask ANYTHING in My name' I assume it is too good to be true the way I WANT to understand it. So First off I look at what or how pop culture/Christianity defines the term. They define it like you do.. (well the prosperity/name and claim it Christians do anyway) Then I look to see if God honors this interpretation.

Just here on this web site so many of you have been tested by this trial and like the foolish man who got his/your house/faith washed away by the wind and rain.. So the answer there is no. Jesus is not telling us he is in the wish granting business, if we add the tag line 'in jesus name I pray.' So, Once I determine a 6 year old's understanding of that passage is not valid, I turn to the scripture and check the translation, because again our bibles (for the most part) are literal translations and not contextual translations. Meaning we are given words and syntax to match what was written in the codeacees and not an interpretation of what was written. This means the translators will be faithful to match the koine greek word to the closest English word or word phrasing to honor the orignial text rather than give a summation of what they believe the text is meaning to say. With that in mind we can know a lot is lot in translation. So to revisit the orginal greek is a must, when something is not what it appears. I use the Vines concordance or the blue letter lexicon and concordance bibles. they put the greek words and definations right up against the English so you can have a more consice understanding of what is being said/communicated.

For example Prayer in the greek is: προσεύχομαι transliterated (using English letters) proseuchomai This is the formal 'full' word for literal prayer. What is prayer, who defines what a prayer is? Jesus Does in Luke 11. Matter of Fact this is the only Christian format or example of what a true prayer is. As I pointed out before at no point is this a wishing ceremony where we get to ask for what we want. Jesus shows us through this one example that Prayer is meant to help us Grow Spiritually/In the Holy Spirit not to line our beds or bank accounts with. Meaning we are asking God to change our hearts and minds, not the other way round.

So then the question becomes is it wrong to make wishes? Answer: No. at no point are we forbidden to ask God for anything. Matter of fact Paul in several different places, pairs 'supplication or petitioning' with prayer, this is also done throughout the OT. even Luke in Acts 1 identifies the separation between Prayer and supplication. So how can we be sure it is not the same as the Prayer Jesus identifies? because it is a completely different greek word with a completely different meaning:δέησις deēsis it means to request to make known a want or need. http://www.blueletterbible.org/lang/lexi...1162&t=KJV

So now with that in mind we can draw a very sharp and clear line in Jesus' day between Prayer and supplication. God is obligated to answer ALL Prayers because He obligates himself to do so, but we must also accept that not all communication between us and God is prayer. We also have supplication which can take prayer form, ex:" Dear God I want... Amen" the true difference is context/what and why we are asking for what we are asking.

Now combine that truth with what Jesus said "Anything you ask in my Name I will do" and that passage takes on a whole new meaning. Again to "ask in someone's name" is the same is to speak in someone's name now. Meaning we will only Ask for something that in this case Jesus would want us to have. So again the question becomes What does Jesus want us to have? Contextually in Luke 11 Right after He teaches us how to pray He tells us EXACTLY What He wants us to Have.. He wants you to A/S/K for the Holy Spirit!

Once you have a measure of the Holy Spirit it all comes into focus, everything becomes clear. At that point your 'anything' Become Whatever you need to establish and maintain a relationship with God. For me 'Anything mean a tour of Hell and a visit from someone caring the message of God concerning my past present and future, along with several gifts and responsibilities I know could have only come from God.. How do I know this is true? Because again it is contextually sound, meaning It all came from a single teaching and or source in the bible. No verse scraps/cherry picking and putting things back together in a random order to make the bible say what I want it to say, and two this truth has been lived out by me for the last 23 years!

[Drich]

I thought we did a whole thread on this, and I was able to show you that what you called prayer infact wasn't. So the question then becomes have you even ever really prayed to God? Again asking God for stuff is not prayer it is supplication or petition. The bible is clear on what prayer is, it is you asking God to change your mind and your heart, rather than you trying to change his.

Who died and made you the ultimate decider of what counts as prayer? (Was it Jesus? Lol)

Jesus decided Im just pointing it out that the word today means something completely different than it did when Jesus spoke about it.

[houseofcantor]

3) Both parties directly communicate with the other party in a meaningful, observable way.

Does whacking off to my Gwynnies count as a meaningful interpersonal observation?
Personal relationship with god is built up through repetitious ritual. It's as real as anything else to the believer.

[Drich]

Drich: You agree? Thanks So do you have a personal relationship with a deity I could verify in this way? Or would you not class it as that?

"you" are subject to and filter everything through your own prejudice so probably not. However this does not preclude others from looking at all that has been done in my life and come to the same conclusion I have.
I would even go out on a limb and say if this were not possible at all, then this religion would have lasted as long as it has.

I don't understand your question. If I could verify you're having a relationship with Jesus say, why would that give me a responsibility? I'd be happy to tell everyone that I had confirmed Jesus was in fact real and you were talking to him. Anyone else could witness this for themselves, presumably. What other responsibility do you suggest?

Why do you assume that I insist on a responsibility? I simply agreed in the OP that an indivisual must confirm he is indeed in a relationship with God otherwise he is just talking with himself, and the "wind and rain" will eventually force that person to admit that.

I would be very surprised, that I'd been able to observe Jesus/God as real and watch them communicate with you. You'd be the first person to produce any such evidence. I'd wonder why no one else had been able to. I'd probably ask them some questions of my own.

Again if I were, then the religion would have failed long ago. And it's the Holy Spirit we have been given over to as a the personage of God in which we communicate.

That said, I don't get to choose the time God responds. But when He does it's clear concise and unmistakeable. Whether it be healings (AIDS Cancer Burst Apendix) Of which I can produce tangiable evidence for the lastest of the three, guidance in my investments and or business, or the knowledge and wisdom God has given me that I share here and with others concerning His word. This is truly the amazing part. I am not one who has committed the bible to memory, in all honesty I know maybe 3 verses by heart. But when one of you askes a question or make a stoopud comment about the bible I just write out what is on my heart, and out comes book chapter and verse, but with out the actual book chapter and verse reference numbers. I just write it all out then go back and fill in the scriptural notations after I google them. I'll quote stuff that I may have only read once. Some of the stuff will bring a tear to my eye because I will have no memory of reading some of the more obscure OT passages but will be spot on in content. My wife can contest to this because I use to have her help me look stuff up in the beginning (before the search engines were as good.) How can I contribute this to God: Here another example of me writing rom the heart: I believe Paul tells us that we do not need a teacher when we have the Holy Spirit, because He writes all of God's laws and precepts on our hearts! When I wrote that/this I have no idea who said it where it was said or the context so now I will go back and google it: I was wrong it was not Paul but John writing to His followers in 1 John 2:27But Christ has blessed you with the Holy Spirit. Now the Spirit stays in you, and you don’t need any teachers. The Spirit is truthful and teaches you everything. So stay one in your heart with Christ, just as the Spirit has taught you to do.

Depending on the translation you can get even closer to what I wrote if you understand the word 'anointing' to mean the Anointing of the Holy Spirit.

But, again for one with a hard heart this means nothing, but for one looking for the truth... 22/23 years of experienceiing one the impossible day in day out, and to be given such a gift/access to the wisdom of God is proof enough, especially when one lives the first 1/2 of his life being told I would be luck to dig ditches for a living.

[Drich]

I'd like to request a relationship with Priapus . . .

Junk on the trunk!

[Minimalist]

Drippy thinks he has a special invisible friend.

Drippy's a moron.

[drfuzzy]

I thought we did a whole thread on this, and I was able to show you that what you called prayer infact wasn't. So the question then becomes have you even ever really prayed to God? Again asking God for stuff is not prayer it is supplication or petition. The bible is clear on what prayer is, it is you asking God to change your mind and your heart, rather than you trying to change his.

Who died and made you the ultimate decider of what counts as prayer? (Was it Jesus? Lol)

Oh ho, that's funny.  I only see Drippy Doodle's posts when someone quotes him, which is an understandably rare occurrence.  I have him on my "Ignore" list of course.  And he thinks that he has been SCHOOLING me on God and prayer?   I tried and tried to tell him that I don't believe God exists, which naturally means that I don't pray.   Well, I'm absolutely delighted to learn that his student never showed up for class, and that he was talking to people who weren't there . . . again.     Thanks Losty!!!      

[robvalue]

Drich: you asked me directly what responsibility I would have after I witnessed it, so I was asking what you meant by that.

So it sounds like no impartial observer could actually verify the three criteria in your case then. Or indeed a single one of them. If the observer is required to be one that is Christian and just takes what you say at face value, that doesn't count. I'm perfectly capable of observing what is right in front of me, and I've never experienced anyone claiming to have a personal relationship without being able to verify this myself if need be. It's only when it becomes a mysterious ghostly second party that this all falls down, every single time. Just telling me stuff is happening and I'm too [whatever] to see it is a dodge. I could make similar claims to you that I'm sure you'd reject as nonsensical.

The success of the religion says nothing at all about its truth, but that would be totally irrelevant if I could actually verify your relationship. People believing all that stuff is true is enough to make it successful, regardless of whether it is true. By this logic, all other religions are also true. Yet they contradict each other.

Remember, I don't care if your religion is true or not. It makes no difference to me. So my heart isn't hard, or whatever. If someone is putting a block on my senses, it would have to be your God. I try my best to be totally open minded. I'm prepared to change my opinion about anything, if I'm presented with credible evidence. I'm an apatheist, I don't care if there is a god or not, or what it is. I also just happen to be atheist, given the current available evidence.