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If it is a metaphor, then it's a pretty crappy one to teach people. "You are guilty for something that you didn't do or even intend to do". Not only that, but not guilty based on some kind of harm caused, but by disobeying a nonsensible order. And not only that, but Eve didn't even know she was being 'bad' by disobeying since she didn't know about good and evil until she ate the thing. It doesn't make sense on so many levels.
Scented Nectar Wrote:
(May 6, 2010 at 7:02 pm)fr0d0 Wrote: He doesn't condemn us WE condemn us!
That would mean that no one goes to hell unless they want to go. The unrepentant 'sinner' does not get this self choice according to xtianity. It the god who condemns, not the victim of that condemnation. That victim is only given the choice "gimme your wallet or I'll shoot you", but much worse of course, since the wallet is "think and do whatever I tell you for your whole life after this conversation" and the gun is "torture that never stops".
Of course though, the robbery was the victim's own fault. They were asking for it, I guess.
Actually its not about being guilty because of something you didn't do. Any time you feel jealousy, lust, anger, hatred, any of these "negative" emotions, you sin. If you succumb to them in any way, you REALLY sin. pretty much everyone is a sinner because everyone is human. That is a great trick of christianity: demonize what we all feel so that we all feel wrong about feeling what we feel, and turn to them to feel better. That's what confession's all about.
May 6, 2010 at 7:46 pm (This post was last modified: May 6, 2010 at 7:59 pm by Scented Nectar.)
(May 6, 2010 at 7:42 pm)Watson Wrote: Those who want to go to Hell, do go to Hell, you're right!
Maybe some figurative 'hell on earth', but not the bible hell which luckily isn't real.
I think I'm at 10 posts now, or else the following link won't work. It's an excellent video about kids being terrorized with hell, the very 'real' hell of eternal torture that xtians believe in.
May 6, 2010 at 8:34 pm (This post was last modified: May 6, 2010 at 8:39 pm by fr0d0.)
(May 6, 2010 at 7:14 pm)Scented Nectar Wrote: That would mean that no one goes to hell unless they want to go.
Absolutely. You have the choice to do the crime. Any punishment is the result of your choice. No one is forcing you to be good. Your reward for positivity is a clear conscience. On the other hand, foster negativity and you live hell. you are tormented. What you're arguing is counter natural. What you seem to be promoting is non accountability, and that just doesn't fit logically, whatever way you look at it.
(May 6, 2010 at 7:30 pm)Rwandrall Wrote: Actually its not about being guilty because of something you didn't do. Any time you feel jealousy, lust, anger, hatred, any of these "negative" emotions, you sin. If you succumb to them in any way, you REALLY sin. pretty much everyone is a sinner because everyone is human.
I agree. 'Sin' is a positive act. Christianity prescribes to the idea that humans are imperfect.
Christianity also offers complete forgiveness. You're bastardising the message by claiming it feeds on guilt. That's the opposite of Christianity, and an easy cop out rather than a frank consideration of the facts.
(May 6, 2010 at 7:14 pm)Scented Nectar Wrote: That would mean that no one goes to hell unless they want to go.
Absolutely. You have the choice to do the crime. Any punishment is the result of your choice. No one is forcing you to be good.
Your god punishes when there is no crime. And if there were one, what crime is bad enough to warrant eternal torture? Seriously, which sins deserve eternal torture as punishment? And if you do agree with your bible that it is deserved, what is accomplished by a punishment with no end? Surely not a life lesson learned so you can carry on in a better, or at least deterred, way afterwards since there is no afterwards to an eternity. Is your god that revengeful, sadistic and evil?
Quote:Your reward for positivity is a clear conscience. On the other hand, foster negativity and you live hell. you are tormented. What you're arguing is counter natural. What you seem to be promoting is non accountability, and that just doesn't fit logically, whatever way you look at it.
Then you are talking about some made up heaven and hell, rather than the one xtianity teaches. A clear conscience comes from honesty and fixing any problems you may have caused, not simply positive thoughts about an invisible being you are pretty sure is there watching you. I agree though, that negativity and torment happen together, but it's not as a divine punishment. Negative emotions are a simple result of bad things happening, no matter what the cause or who is to blame for those bad things.
Quote:I agree. 'Sin' is a positive act. Christianity prescribes to the idea that humans are imperfect.
Christianity also offers complete forgiveness.
If you make a claim of imperfection, then you should be able to state the specific flaw and why it is bad. If you go one step further and claim to be able to fix this flaw, the fix should be proveable, eg proof that praying or asking forgiveness will cure whatever the flaw, in amounts that show significantly better results than placebos. Going even one step further, if you fail to fix the alleged flaw with the person by not convincing them of your cure, and if your crazed dictator God, were real and going to punish them for these sins, shouldn't the punishments fit the crime?
Quote:You're bastardising the message by claiming it feeds on guilt. That's the opposite of Christianity, and an easy cop out rather than a frank consideration of the facts.
Maybe your personal interpretation doesn't rely on guilt, but xtianity and its bible certainly do. Have you never felt guilt about anything simply because of religion telling you it's wrong, rather than feeling deep inside of you that it really is a wrong thing to do?
May 7, 2010 at 3:28 am (This post was last modified: May 7, 2010 at 10:11 pm by tackattack.)
(May 6, 2010 at 10:56 pm)Scented Nectar Wrote:
(May 6, 2010 at 8:34 pm)fr0d0 Wrote:
(May 6, 2010 at 7:14 pm)Scented Nectar Wrote: That would mean that no one goes to hell unless they want to go.
Absolutely. You have the choice to do the crime. Any punishment is the result of your choice. No one is forcing you to be good.
Your god punishes when there is no crime. And if there were one, what crime is bad enough to warrant eternal torture? Seriously, which sins deserve eternal torture as punishment? And if you do agree with your bible that it is deserved, what is accomplished by a punishment with no end? Surely not a life lesson learned so you can carry on in a better, or at least deterred, way afterwards since there is no afterwards to an eternity. Is your god that revengeful, sadistic and evil?
Quote:Your reward for positivity is a clear conscience. On the other hand, foster negativity and you live hell. you are tormented. What you're arguing is counter natural. What you seem to be promoting is non accountability, and that just doesn't fit logically, whatever way you look at it.
Then you are talking about some made up heaven and hell, rather than the one xtianity teaches. A clear conscience comes from honesty and fixing any problems you may have caused, not simply positive thoughts about an invisible being you are pretty sure is there watching you. I agree though, that negativity and torment happen together, but it's not as a divine punishment. Negative emotions are a simple result of bad things happening, no matter what the cause or who is to blame for those bad things.
Quote:I agree. 'Sin' is a positive act. Christianity prescribes to the idea that humans are imperfect.
Christianity also offers complete forgiveness.
If you make a claim of imperfection, then you should be able to state the specific flaw and why it is bad. If you go one step further and claim to be able to fix this flaw, the fix should be proveable, eg proof that praying or asking forgiveness will cure whatever the flaw, in amounts that show significantly better results than placebos. Going even one step further, if you fail to fix the alleged flaw with the person by not convincing them of your cure, and if your crazed dictator God, were real and going to punish them for these sins, shouldn't the punishments fit the crime?
Quote:You're bastardising the message by claiming it feeds on guilt. That's the opposite of Christianity, and an easy cop out rather than a frank consideration of the facts.
Maybe your personal interpretation doesn't rely on guilt, but xtianity and its bible certainly do. Have you never felt guilt about anything simply because of religion telling you it's wrong, rather than feeling deep inside of you that it really is a wrong thing to do?
(May 6, 2010 at 3:34 pm)Scented Nectar Wrote:
(May 6, 2010 at 3:20 am)tackattack Wrote: Actually the sum of Christianity is contradiction. We start off as sinnners and try to live as good a life as Jesus would have wanted, knowing we'll never attain that. It would be very hypocritical without personal accountability. Our society, I feel, is drifting away from personal accounatbility and that of course bleeds into some religion. I do see the inevtable downfall of religon as an institution as a likely event, I'm just concerned at the cost that has.
If you are starting off as a sinner because of a distant ancestor eating something she was told not to eat, then where is personal accountability? How are you responsible for someone else's behaviour? Why does Jesus think you are a sinner for something you didn't even do? The result of ending religion's rule over people, will be REAL personal accountability. Little kids won't be held accountable, terrorized with worry they will be tortured eternally for not spending their lives making up for some other person's (who they never even met) table manners (don't eat that dessert yet, young lady!). Priests will be held accountable for aggrevated rape (hell is scarier than a gun or knife).
1- I thought that was a funny video, thanks for posting it. "I was afraid to get close, " " I made myself.." " Christianity is terrorism" " all loving God will torture people.." funny stuff. What I think a lot of atheists don't get is there's a difference between judgement and punishment. Truly hellfire and brimstone are the tenants of some religions, but not the one I was raised in (nor the majority IMO), and it's a tragedy that people use fear and hatred to influence people. That's not religion's monopoly though.
2- I don't know what definition you use as hell, but it's obviously different than mine. I've put this elsewhere, but I'll reitterate. To me hell is seperation from God for eternity. It could be nothing more than an eternity of nothingness that most atheists believe happens when you die, to some eternally seeming torture chamber in your mind while your neo-cortex slowly dies. I don't believe it's an actual lake of fire you get teleported to like from star trek or anything. Oh, and that's what I teach the children in my church (about 13 kids for 3 years now) and is in line with my church's doctrine, not some made up wishful version of hell.
3- Yes the punishments should fit the crime, regardless of the context.
4- No I've never felt guilt about anything simply because of religion telling you it's wrong. My morality is subjective and religion is merely a honing and balancing tool. I usually (every instance I can think of) feel inside of me that it really is a wrong thing to do.
5-Let me explain original sin to you from my perspective (shared by many other Christians and what I teach in class) Personal accountability is very imporant. I'm not a sinner because someone who might/ might not have existed ate an apple. From the age of around 7 when our consciousness truly has matured enough to guide our actions, I've chosen what I want instead of what God wants for me. It's a hourly struggle to sacrifice the self and be selfless, that is the original sin, to presume to question God's will and presuming we could have a better grasp on what's right and wrong then the creator of good and evil, omnificent and omnipresent God.
6- I will fight with you for real personal accountability. You can start by showing some intellectual honesty and researching other denominations of Christianity and their beliefs before you condemn a hugh portion of the population as idiot, child terrorists.
(May 6, 2010 at 7:30 pm)Rwandrall Wrote:
Scented nectar Wrote:If it is a metaphor, then it's a pretty crappy one to teach people. "You are guilty for something that you didn't do or even intend to do". Not only that, but not guilty based on some kind of harm caused, but by disobeying a nonsensible order. And not only that, but Eve didn't even know she was being 'bad' by disobeying since she didn't know about good and evil until she ate the thing. It doesn't make sense on so many levels.
(May 6, 2010 at 7:02 pm)fr0d0 Wrote: He doesn't condemn us WE condemn us!
That would mean that no one goes to hell unless they want to go. The unrepentant 'sinner' does not get this self choice according to xtianity. It the god who condemns, not the victim of that condemnation. That victim is only given the choice "gimme your wallet or I'll shoot you", but much worse of course, since the wallet is "think and do whatever I tell you for your whole life after this conversation" and the gun is "torture that never stops".
Of course though, the robbery was the victim's own fault. They were asking for it, I guess.
Actually its not about being guilty because of something you didn't do. Any time you feel jealousy, lust, anger, hatred, any of these "negative" emotions, you sin. If you succumb to them in any way, you REALLY sin. pretty much everyone is a sinner because everyone is human. That is a great trick of christianity: demonize what we all feel so that we all feel wrong about feeling what we feel, and turn to them to feel better. That's what confession's all about.
7- Being "unrepenant" is a choice. It's a false metaphor you're using. It's much more like you can come in if you wipe your feet, or you can stay out there in the cold. What I don't get is that a lot of atheists operate within the confines of society and submit to laws and rules they don't necessarily want to follow. I don't see all the atheists running red lights, slamming doors in people's faces, punching people to settle an arguement, not holding doors for a lady, refusing to pay for a first date, etc.. Jesus doesn't ask any more than accept that you're not in control of everything, show a little respect and keep your ears open. Some act like he wants you to become some mindless, automaton crusader forcing you to bend the core of who you are to what he wants.
8- Confession is a Catholic thing, I'm not sure exactly how many other breakouts of Christianity use that. You should also not feel wrong about how you feel if it's natural to you and within your moral code. I don't apologize to God for the way I feel, often if ever. I don't run to Jesus every time some jerk on the road pisses me off, or every sinfull though. I feel guilt when I break my own morle code and use my faith to strengthen my convictions to remain true to myself.
MAybe we should all rename the "bible belt" to the "fear belt" or something. IDK, I'm getting tired though. Thanks for your replies on this so far everyone.
"There ought to be a term that would designate those who actually follow the teachings of Jesus, since the word 'Christian' has been largely divorced from those teachings, and so polluted by fundamentalists that it has come to connote their polar opposite: intolerance, vindictive hatred, and bigotry." -- Philip Stater, Huffington Post
always working on cleaning my windows- me regarding Johari
(May 7, 2010 at 3:28 am)tackattack Wrote: 1- I thought that was a funny video, thanks for posting it. "I was afraid to get close, " " I made myself.." " Christianity is terrorism" " all loving God will torture people.." funny stuff. What I think a lot of atheists don't get is there's a difference between judgement and punishment. Truly hellfire and brimstone are the tenants of some religions, but not the one I was raised in (nor the majority IMO), and it's a tragedy that people use fear and hatred to influence people. That's not religion's monopoly though.
That video makes me cry more than laugh, but the guy in it does have a good sense of humour which shows in some of his other videos. I'm not sure what religion you were raised in, but I was assuming you are now a Christian. That is the religion that believes in hellfire and brimstone. I am aware though, that there are many well intentioned people out there who adapt (cherry pick or change outright) the bible to be less horrific. That speaks well of their inner morality compared to those who think it's good to blindly accept immoral behaviour just because they think a god did it.
Quote:2- I don't know what definition you use as hell, but it's obviously different than mine. I've put this elsewhere, but I'll reitterate. To me hell is seperation from God for eternity. It could be nothing more than an eternity of nothingness that most atheists believe happens when you die, to some eternally seeming torture chamber in your mind while your neo-cortex slowly dies. I don't believe it's an actual lake of fire you get teleported to like from star trek or anything. Oh, and that's what I teach the children in my church (about 13 kids for 3 years now) and is in line with my church's doctrine, not some made up wishful version of hell.
Then your church does not follow the bible. However, an eternity of a mildly bad 'separation' is still an eternity of a bad feeling. Not as bad as writhing and gnashing, but still, not a nice thing to do to a person just because they didn't pander to your god's narcissism by telling it telepathically that they adore it and praise it and love it, or simply didn't believe in it without any valid indication of its reality.
Quote:3- Yes the punishments should fit the crime, regardless of the context.
Then what finite human crime qualifies for eternal punishment? Seriously, what one(s)?
Quote:4- No I've never felt guilt about anything simply because of religion telling you it's wrong. My morality is subjective and religion is merely a honing and balancing tool. I usually (every instance I can think of) feel inside of me that it really is a wrong thing to do.
It's sad though if you have to second guess yourself by double checking if your morals are approved by the religion's dogma.
Quote:5-Let me explain original sin to you from my perspective (shared by many other Christians and what I teach in class) Personal accountability is very imporant. I'm not a sinner because someone who might/ might not have existed ate an apple. From the age of around 7 when our consciousness truly has matured enough to guide our actions, I've chosen what I want instead of what God wants for me. It's a hourly struggle to sacrifice the self and be selfless, that is the original sin, to presume to question God's will and presuming we could have a better grasp on what's right and wrong then the creator of good and evil, omnificent and omnipresent God.
You are assuming that being yourself is itself a sin. If your god really didn't want you to be yourself, he wouldn't have made you that way. And it's no test to filter the good humans from the bad, since your god wouldn't have been so stupid as to create something he thought was bad like sin and the ability to sin, would he? I mean especially if the price for failing such a test would involve punishment at all. If you want to claim there is any sort of sin at all, original or not, then acknowledge that your god made it and intended it to be that way. If you really believe that your god created everything, is all powerful and all knowing, then be prepared that he's got to take all the blame as well as the credit. Xtians like to blame a devil, or 'evil', or human choices or whatever for all the bad stuff, but no way. If your god made everything, then he made his worst enemy too, even though for some unknown reason is unable to blink his eyes and make the devil vanish forever. Must be those mysterious ways.
Quote:6- I will fight with you for real personal accountability. You can start by showing some intellectual honesty and researching other denominations of Christianity and their beliefs before you condemn a hugh portion of the population as idiot, child terrorists.
It says right in all official versions of the xtian rulebook that the hell myth is to be seen as real. Are the ones who believe the bible not real xtians?
Quote:7- Being "unrepenant" is a choice. It's a false metaphor you're using. It's much more like you can come in if you wipe your feet, or you can stay out there in the cold. What I don't get is that a lot of atheists operate within the confines of society and submit to laws and rules they don't necessarily want to follow. I don't see all the atheists running red lights, slamming doors in people's faces, punching people to settle an arguement, not holding doors for a lady, refusing to pay for a first date, etc.. Jesus doesn't ask any more than accept that you're not in control of everything, show a little respect and keep your ears open. Some act like he wants you to become some mindless, automaton crusader forcing you to bend the core of who you are to what he wants.
If your god were real, my choice would be to follow immoral rules that lower my and other people's quality of life, and do so for the rest of my life, or to suffer hideously forever. True feelings of repenting has nothing to do with it when there is a gun to your head, unless you develop Stockholm's syndrome.
(May 7, 2010 at 3:28 am)tackattack Wrote: 1- I thought that was a funny video, thanks for posting it. "I was afraid to get close, " " I made myself.." " Christianity is terrorism" " all loving God will torture people.." funny stuff. What I think a lot of atheists don't get is there's a difference between judgement and punishment. Truly hellfire and brimstone are the tenants of some religions, but not the one I was raised in (nor the majority IMO), and it's a tragedy that people use fear and hatred to influence people. That's not religion's monopoly though.
That video makes me cry more than laugh, but the guy in it does have a good sense of humour which shows in some of his other videos. I'm not sure what religion you were raised in, but I was assuming you are now a Christian. That is the religion that believes in hellfire and brimstone. I am aware though, that there are many well intentioned people out there who adapt (cherry pick or change outright) the bible to be less horrific. That speaks well of their inner morality compared to those who think it's good to blindly accept immoral behaviour just because they think a god did it.
Quote:2- I don't know what definition you use as hell, but it's obviously different than mine. I've put this elsewhere, but I'll reitterate. To me hell is seperation from God for eternity. It could be nothing more than an eternity of nothingness that most atheists believe happens when you die, to some eternally seeming torture chamber in your mind while your neo-cortex slowly dies. I don't believe it's an actual lake of fire you get teleported to like from star trek or anything. Oh, and that's what I teach the children in my church (about 13 kids for 3 years now) and is in line with my church's doctrine, not some made up wishful version of hell.
Then your church does not follow the bible. However, an eternity of a mildly bad 'separation' is still an eternity of a bad feeling. Not as bad as writhing and gnashing, but still, not a nice thing to do to a person just because they didn't pander to your god's narcissism by telling it telepathically that they adore it and praise it and love it, or simply didn't believe in it without any valid indication of its reality.
Quote:3- Yes the punishments should fit the crime, regardless of the context.
Then what finite human crime qualifies for eternal punishment? Seriously, what one(s)?
Quote:4- No I've never felt guilt about anything simply because of religion telling you it's wrong. My morality is subjective and religion is merely a honing and balancing tool. I usually (every instance I can think of) feel inside of me that it really is a wrong thing to do.
It's sad though if you have to second guess yourself by double checking if your morals are approved by the religion's dogma.
Quote:5-Let me explain original sin to you from my perspective (shared by many other Christians and what I teach in class) Personal accountability is very imporant. I'm not a sinner because someone who might/ might not have existed ate an apple. From the age of around 7 when our consciousness truly has matured enough to guide our actions, I've chosen what I want instead of what God wants for me. It's a hourly struggle to sacrifice the self and be selfless, that is the original sin, to presume to question God's will and presuming we could have a better grasp on what's right and wrong then the creator of good and evil, omnificent and omnipresent God.
You are assuming that being yourself is itself a sin. If your god really didn't want you to be yourself, he wouldn't have made you that way. And it's no test to filter the good humans from the bad, since your god wouldn't have been so stupid as to create something he thought was bad like sin and the ability to sin, would he? I mean especially if the price for failing such a test would involve punishment at all. If you want to claim there is any sort of sin at all, original or not, then acknowledge that your god made it and intended it to be that way. If you really believe that your god created everything, is all powerful and all knowing, then be prepared that he's got to take all the blame as well as the credit. Xtians like to blame a devil, or 'evil', or human choices or whatever for all the bad stuff, but no way. If your god made everything, then he made his worst enemy too, even though for some unknown reason is unable to blink his eyes and make the devil vanish forever. Must be those mysterious ways.
Quote:6- I will fight with you for real personal accountability. You can start by showing some intellectual honesty and researching other denominations of Christianity and their beliefs before you condemn a hugh portion of the population as idiot, child terrorists.
It says right in all official versions of the xtian rulebook that the hell myth is to be seen as real. Are the ones who believe the bible not real xtians?
Quote:7- Being "unrepenant" is a choice. It's a false metaphor you're using. It's much more like you can come in if you wipe your feet, or you can stay out there in the cold. What I don't get is that a lot of atheists operate within the confines of society and submit to laws and rules they don't necessarily want to follow. I don't see all the atheists running red lights, slamming doors in people's faces, punching people to settle an arguement, not holding doors for a lady, refusing to pay for a first date, etc.. Jesus doesn't ask any more than accept that you're not in control of everything, show a little respect and keep your ears open. Some act like he wants you to become some mindless, automaton crusader forcing you to bend the core of who you are to what he wants.
If your god were real, my choice would be to follow immoral rules that lower my and other people's quality of life, and do so for the rest of my life, or to suffer hideously forever. True feelings of repenting has nothing to do with it when there is a gun to your head, unless you develop Stockholm's syndrome.
1-You can't say Christianity as a whole believes in hellfire and brimstone. Your definition of Chrsitianity is wrong. Southern baptists and evangelical luherans do preach hellfire and brimstone, but that subject is not broched in the universl creeds.
2- That would also be an incorrect statement. Hellfire is only mentioned 2 maybe 3 times in the entire bible (outside the acid trip that is revelation- which is judgement day anyways not today) and in all referecne I recall they were used in metaphors by matthew about sheep and such. If you're a literalist in your interpretation then there's a lot more to reconcile in the Bible than hell. To claim we don't follow the Bible to the letter on every little thing, yes that's a correct statement. Context and perspective is important in seeking truth though.
3- Those that exchanged the truth of God for a lie and worshiped and served the creation rather than the Creator. Those that choose the selfish path, as opposed to the selfless.
4-Second guessiong yourself is sad? Wow .. you might try some introspection sometimes. Maybe questioning your beliefs/ behaviorwould help you grow as an individual some. I mean you might well and good things its perfectly fine to chop someone up and make a soup of them, but others might disagree. Right no need to ever question yourself.
5-God did create evil. Sin is simply a rejection of God, that's not something he created, unless you mean indirectly by giving us choice. God also created the devil and uses him to test us.. that's biblical.. why would I ever assume anything different. Who are theese people you're calling Christians? I don't think God wants to get rid of evil.. I think it's integral to growth?
6-Where does it say in the Bible or the universal creeds that Christians are to see hellfire and brimstone as a real place? You're going to have to show me that one.. I've never seen it.. I could have missed it though.
7-so you would choose to be immoral if God were real? I'm not understanding your statement I think. I don't think there's a gun to my head, I'm just trying to see where you're coming from, please rephrase.
"There ought to be a term that would designate those who actually follow the teachings of Jesus, since the word 'Christian' has been largely divorced from those teachings, and so polluted by fundamentalists that it has come to connote their polar opposite: intolerance, vindictive hatred, and bigotry." -- Philip Stater, Huffington Post
always working on cleaning my windows- me regarding Johari
Quote:1-You can't say Christianity as a whole believes in hellfire and brimstone. Your definition of Chrsitianity is wrong. Southern baptists and evangelical luherans do preach hellfire and brimstone, but that subject is not broched in the universl creeds.
I'm going by what the official rulebook says. I don't think it has any preface saying 'take the following with a grain of salt', or 'these are only metaphors, people'. I'm not talking about what the followers are doing or believing these days. I'm talking about what their most holy book says, the one they think their god had written through divine magical inspiration for them.
Quote:2- That would also be an incorrect statement. Hellfire is only mentioned 2 maybe 3 times in the entire bible (outside the acid trip that is revelation- which is judgement day anyways not today) and in all referecne I recall they were used in metaphors by matthew about sheep and such. If you're a literalist in your interpretation then there's a lot more to reconcile in the Bible than hell. To claim we don't follow the Bible to the letter on every little thing, yes that's a correct statement. Context and perspective is important in seeking truth though.
Nope, I don't buy that. There is no disclaimer in the bible saying it's not literal, nor is there any indication that something must be repeated more than 3 times to be considered true.
Quote:3- Those that exchanged the truth of God for a lie and worshiped and served the creation rather than the Creator. Those that choose the selfish path, as opposed to the selfless.
So, you are saying that a person who focuses on their own survival and happiness and the real world around them instead of placating and reassuring an imaginary supermonster through telepathy that he is so wonderful, is deserving of eternal torture?????? Seriously?
Quote:4-Second guessiong yourself is sad? Wow .. you might try some introspection sometimes. Maybe questioning your beliefs/ behaviorwould help you grow as an individual some. I mean you might well and good things its perfectly fine to chop someone up and make a soup of them, but others might disagree. Right no need to ever question yourself.
It's only sad when someone blindly accepts everything as being second-guess-worthy just because they want to trust the source, without thinking as to whether they agree or not. Otherwise, feedback is great and certainly is a big part of personal change and development.
Quote:5-God did create evil. Sin is simply a rejection of God, that's not something he created, unless you mean indirectly by giving us choice. God also created the devil and uses him to test us.. that's biblical.. why would I ever assume anything different. Who are theese people you're calling Christians? I don't think God wants to get rid of evil.. I think it's integral to growth?
No getting away with calling it 'indirect'. Either the fucker made everything or he didn't. And how is being tortured forever integral to growth? There is no afterwards to forever. When does the godvictim apply such a horribly learned 'growth'? Do you really think that your god is a nice guy if he 'tests' his beloved children, knowing that many will fail, when the result of failing means the testees will be tortured forever???? WTF kind of sick creep are you worshipping?
Quote:6-Where does it say in the Bible or the universal creeds that Christians are to see hellfire and brimstone as a real place? You're going to have to show me that one.. I've never seen it.. I could have missed it though.
If you want to play the 'that part's not really real' game, then would you admit that maybe your god is not real either? Nothing in the bible saying that you are to see him as a real being, after all....
Quote:7-so you would choose to be immoral if God were real? I'm not understanding your statement I think. I don't think there's a gun to my head, I'm just trying to see where you're coming from, please rephrase.
At the threat of eternal torture, there are probably quite a lot of immoral things I would do, like the immoral rules of biblegod. Everyone has a breaking point. The only god command I would not be able, as opposed to unwilling, to do would be anything involving thought, such as commands to love him, worship him (in the emotional rather than recited words meaning), etc.
