A discussion around family table.

[KichigaiNeko]

Hell...found it!!

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hell,_Nord-Tr%C3%B8ndelag

Looks like a pretty place....wouldn't mind going there.....

Can't help noticing a lack of fire and brimstone (volcanic activity?) and I would guess that NOT having appropriate clothing for the latitude would be torture...but....hmmm

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Bugger me!!
There is even a weather report for Hell...bit chilly for dis Kitteh but hey!! Check it out!!

http://www.yr.no/place/Norway/Nord-Tr%c3...rdal/Hell/

[fr0d0]

Your god punishes when there is no crime. And if there were one, what crime is bad enough to warrant eternal torture? Seriously, which sins deserve eternal torture as punishment? And if you do agree with your bible that it is deserved, what is accomplished by a punishment with no end? Surely not a life lesson learned so you can carry on in a better, or at least deterred, way afterwards since there is no afterwards to an eternity. Is your god that revengeful, sadistic and evil?

As you're contradicting me, can you provide evidence to support your claim here please.

[Scented Nectar]

Your god punishes when there is no crime. And if there were one, what crime is bad enough to warrant eternal torture? Seriously, which sins deserve eternal torture as punishment? And if you do agree with your bible that it is deserved, what is accomplished by a punishment with no end? Surely not a life lesson learned so you can carry on in a better, or at least deterred, way afterwards since there is no afterwards to an eternity. Is your god that revengeful, sadistic and evil?

As you're contradicting me, can you provide evidence to support your claim here please.

I'm not sure what the contradiction is. That the crime does not deserve eternal punishment? I feel strongly that no finite human crime is deserving of eternal punishment. What revenge needs eternity? Is refusing to think lovey-worship thoughts about a controlling authority even a crime? Is refusing to take God's multiple personality of Jesus into your heart evil and worthy of punishment (eternal at that!)? This God fellow should really get himself into therapy or something, requiring that from people. Sure it feels good to get compliments, but is this God guy stupid? Everyone knows a compliment means nothing when it's forced. Maybe it's time for religions to at least make up better quality gods if they are not ready to toss the concept entirely.

[fr0d0]

The contradiction is : your understanding of the Christian position on this and mine/ every other Christian I know.

If I had the understanding you profess, I'd be very confused too. I certainly wouldn't be a Christian. You claim you're right in that understanding, and I'm asking you to show me how you come to that conclusion.

For instance - you think that forced coercion makes you right with God?? You don't think it purely what's in your heart that counts - what you really feel? You don't think removal of choice = no choice? Forgive me... your position seems totally retarded.

[Scented Nectar]

The contradiction is : your understanding of the Christian position on this and mine/ every other Christian I know.

I'm not going to even try adapting this to anyone's individual position, even yours, since it's impossible to know all the variations. The best and most accurate thing would be to base things on what their rulebook says, since that is the original source of their interpretations. The bible rulebook says eternal torture for not worshipping God. You are ordered to think good and happy thoughts about your ruler. If you don't, especially after you've been told about existence and what he wants you to do, you are tortured forever. It's really good that he's not real, because I would have to try and kill him to prevent everyone's (including myself's) torture. Self defense in an extreme way!

If I had the understanding you profess, I'd be very confused too. I certainly wouldn't be a Christian. You claim you're right in that understanding, and I'm asking you to show me how you come to that conclusion.

I'm not confused about this. It's very clear. Do and think as God orders or go to hell and be told it's your own fault. I would never be able to authentically think nice thoughts about such an evil dictator. I would be scared however, and would probably try to change my thoughts in hopes of tricking/convincing myself and God.

For instance - you think that forced coercion makes you right with God?? You don't think it purely what's in your heart that counts - what you really feel? You don't think removal of choice = no choice? Forgive me... your position seems totally retarded.

If you don't really feel nice thoughts about God, do you have a choice? Does God say it's alright as long as you give it a good try? Where's the choice? Even if it was all able to be done through choice, does that make it ok that these ridiculous, unecessary things are demanded at threat of endless torture?

Hope this doesn't seem spammy or something, but I made a youtube a couple weeks ago about heaven and hell and some of what I'm saying above. Here it is:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Nht_AgzONAA

[Watson]

Scented Nectar, you have backed up nothing of your own Biblical interpretation, you claim to know exactly what the intent was behind the Bible, and yet to any well-learned Christian/theist, you're interpretation is entirely bonkers. It's the kind of thing that leads, very quickly, to Fundamentalism.

You claim that, to live happily and to stay out of Hell, a person must worship God and be obedient toward Him. This is partially true, but your own misunderstanding of God's nature leads you to be in complete contention with that ideal, and rightly so!

Just like any good book, the Bible is a metaphor and tells its tales that way intentionally. Just look at the way it's written, even! No details, no specific places or moments, but the core facts of the story are still there. The parts that are imporant to the metaphor are within the book, nothing more.

Read into it, think harder- apply your knowledge of real world experiences to the Bible, not the other way around. It may begin to make more sense for you.

[fr0d0]

I have to agree with Watson there Scented. You're evidence is fantasy. Maybe shared fantasy, but fantasy none the less. Ignorance is no excuse here. You can chose not to think and persist with that illogical stance, or look at the facts and apply reason. There's merit in holding your view for humorous effect, but that's about it.

[Scented Nectar]

No way, you two. I'm going to stick with the literal NON-interpretation of your rulebook, unless you can show where it says to not take which parts seriously. I'll leave the making up of new, adapted interpretations to the followers, since they are the ones needing them. I'm very aware that people change and metaphorize it, and I actually think that's a good thing. If it didn't happen, a lot more fundie horrors would happen. But for the purposes of most conversations, and because all re-interpretors do their changes a bit different than each other, I can only attack the common root of it, the rulebook that clearly says you will be tortured forever for not thinking thoughts about how wonderful your god is. What is worship? What is acceptance into the heart? What is love? What is belief? Control your thoughts or be tortured forever. Your god makes this very clear. If he were real, he's be the worst asshole in the universe. Dictators are bad enough, but thought police? Yikes!!!

Believe in him all you want, but would your all loving god really torture people forever just because they were not able to think praises about him without faking it? Why would your god even need his emotions pandered to in such an immature way?

So yeah, no telling me that this doesn't really mean that, or that this one is a metaphor or whatever. If you want to take that line of thought, then the conversation is no longer about the Abrahamic god, but about a metaphorical god concept, some of whose principles you follow, sort of. And once recognised as a mere concept, I have no argument, as I don't disagree any more about its existence. The individual morals yes, but not the existence any more once that claim is revoked.

The so called perfect and inspired word of such a god, certainly wouldn' t be vague would it? Would your god take such a chance when the consequence for his beloved children is so high? Eternal fucking torture?

If you want to go the metaphorical route, are you prepared to consider that God is also just a metaphor?

[Watson]

Then there is no point in arguing with you, SN, because you are refusing to take a look at our Christian interpretation of the Christian Bible.

You have literally just stated that you willfully choose not to look into a metaphorical interpretation of any kind of the Bible. This is not logical. Do you not look for metaphors in any other book when you read them? Do you take it lierally when, say, the villain of a book advocates some terrible crime as meaning that the author of that book also advocates the crime? Certainly that's a terrible way to read a book.

I have told you to re-observe the way the Bible is written- it lacks the details of an ordinary, literal-meaning book. It is written specifically in the way of a metaphor, and is clearly meant to be interpreted as such. Now, siimply because some morons interpret it some ways which seem very literal and/or foolish, does not mean those morons' interpretations are correct. There are many right-minded Christians/theists, as I said, who are appalled at notions like the Fundamentalist God interpretation and all of its meanings.

But that God is clearly not real, or we'd be looking at an awfully traumatizing world, wouldn't we?

You mention that the Bible is the 'inspired word of God' in your post, and to some degree I have come to find that phrase an obnoxious one. It has continually misleadmany a Christian and atheist for some time now. When you look at that, you are assuming that it means the Bible is literally God's word, written down by people who heard it of Him. Wen I look at the term 'inspired word of God', I believe that it means the Bible is a book written by human men, inspired by God and God's 'word' as they understood it.

The term 'Word' here does not mean a literal word of mouth. Once again, you must read into it, and be smart enough to apply your own life-learnings to it to understand the meaning of the 'Word.'

[Scented Nectar]

Then there is no point in arguing with you, SN, because you are refusing to take a look at our Christian interpretation of the Christian Bible.

You have literally just stated that you willfully choose not to look into a metaphorical interpretation of any kind of the Bible. This is not logical. Do you not look for metaphors in any other book when you read them? Do you take it lierally when, say, the villain of a book advocates some terrible crime as meaning that the author of that book also advocates the crime? Certainly that's a terrible way to read a book.

Why would I waste time trying to counter all the many re-interpretations? I only care about that on an individual basis, and even then only sometimes. For wider than just one person purposes, I'm going right to the source, the bible, which very clearly does not say 'this one is a metaphor, and that one is real'.

I have told you to re-observe the way the Bible is written- it lacks the details of an ordinary, literal-meaning book.

Well, it is rather bad as far as artistic literary aesthetics, but that's not my point. Followers will not be saying 'this one must be a metaphor, since after all, look how non-ordinary the writing is...' You may be different, but Christians in general are expected to believe the stuff written in their bible.

It is written specifically in the way of a metaphor, and is clearly meant to be interpreted as such. Now, siimply because some morons interpret it some ways which seem very literal and/or foolish, does not mean those morons' interpretations are correct. There are many right-minded Christians/theists, as I said, who are appalled at notions like the Fundamentalist God interpretation and all of its meanings.

Then, please show me these specifics which show it to be metaphorical. Also, unless these vague 'specifics' indicate that the whole thing, including God, is just a metaphor, then I will also need to see where it says which parts are metaphors.

But that God is clearly not real, or we'd be looking at an awfully traumatizing world, wouldn't we?

Yeah, that's kind of my point. Setting aside though whether he's real, do you think highly of his morals? Do you worship him due to being truly infatuated and in love with him, or because you are ordered to?

You mention that the Bible is the 'inspired word of God' in your post, and to some degree I have come to find that phrase an obnoxious one. It has continually misleadmany a Christian and atheist for some time now. When you look at that, you are assuming that it means the Bible is literally God's word, written down by people who heard it of Him. Wen I look at the term 'inspired word of God', I believe that it means the Bible is a book written by human men, inspired by God and God's 'word' as they understood it.

I'll stop mocking its so called inspiration when xtians stop claiming it IS magically inspired. If you don't believe it's inspired by some deity, and that mere humans wrote it, then why is it given divine status among xtians? If it is not inspired, why do you believe the claims of magic inside?

The term 'Word' here does not mean a literal word of mouth. Once again, you must read into it, and be smart enough to apply your own life-learnings to it to understand the meaning of the 'Word.'

Yeah, yeah, nothing's literal, sure, sure. Except when conveniently fitting in with what you want to believe anyways. I guess I've heard it before. 'That one doesn't count, it's a metaphor, and that one has a different context because of the year it was then, and that one is real - if you question it you will go to hell.....' Until all of you claiming to be christians can agree on what is metaphorical, and can show why this is the case, I must assume that the authours of the bible intended it to be believed the way it is written.