How it was forged.

[Cato]

I only replied to your broad statement. But true, it is a distraction from the main topic.
We better discuss the main topic only.

If you have any other "broad statements" about me, you can PM me, or open a separate topic for that.

Your reply also had nothing to do with the 'broad statements' I made; all true by the way. My comment was for the benefit of someone that was unfamiliar with your particular style of interaction here.

You should busy yourself with my cow/pig shit analogy.

[Wyrd of Gawd]

[WinterHold]

MrNoMorePropaganda

Why couldn't the Quran be easy like the Bible? Oh well. Completely forgot you don't like Hadiths, and I have to agree with you that Hadiths are not a good source of information - for the most part (they contain some funny/curious things, like Muhammad expressing his dislike of Chess).


However, not using Hadith does create all sorts of problems. How do you know to pray five times a day? Most of the details for the story of Muhammad's Night Journey (through the seven heavens) come from the Hadith.

You need the Hadith to get the specifics of Salat and for the Sharia. How would you properly follow the Sunnah without any Hadith? Even if one is not Sunni, and either Ibadi or Shia, you would still see Muhammad as an example and use their Hadith collections to follow his example.

It is is easy; as a matter in fact, it only requires opening up and reading, and that's it.
Then again I should point out to a mistake in your statement; making chess "forbidden" is an opinion of a scholar, there wasn't a single Hadith referring to the game.

The rest of your statement after the "chess", is actually wrong. The law "or as you call it sharia" is mentioned in the Quran, so from it one can actually know all the pillars of the law; yet how to practice the act itself can be fetched from the inherited habits.
As all nations in this world, all do keep a certain heritage (you can take the red Indians as an example https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Native_American_religion ), as Islam originated in Mecca & Madina, the natives there inherit the prayer & the other topics of the "law". Their practices can be validated against the Quran, and then one would practice without fear of forgery.
Though if you follow the Hadith, you actually get a different style of prayer (like the Shia way of prayer).

And then again, the Hadith collections are a minefield. Nobody said you wouldn't find something "true" in there as it is a collection of "talks & tales"; but the problem is (as my topic clearly said), was the "people who lied and told false tales to mutate the religion depending on their needs".

Given all of the disproportionate suffering Allah inflicted on innocent Egyptians (e.g. children), who may not have necessarily agreed with the Pharaoh, I probably would have disobeyed Allah too and pointed out the unfairness. Why didn't Allah simply do a Quran 13:13 on the Pharaoh or the royal palace instead of killing powerless Egyptians? It would have been so much simpler.

Quran 13:13 Nay, thunder repeateth His praises, and so do the angels, with awe: He flingeth the loud-voiced thunder-bolts, and therewith He striketh whomsoever He will.. yet these (are the men) who (dare to) dispute about Allah, with the strength of His power (supreme)!

This is off topic, but to answer some points :
-The pharaoh was the one who inflicted those acts; not God. God was only the architect of fate that brought pharaoh as leader when those people existed too.
-This life was always meant to be a testing ground for humanity against Satan. In other words; whom would they obey ? God, or Satan ?
-As the pharaoh was obeying Satan, it was expected from him to do so. Yet, are the people of Moses (including Moses himself) would obey God or Satan ?

It was a mere test.

Eventually, the real life of which God would "judge humanity directly", then lead them to either paradise or Hell, is known as "the afterlife", there, the pharaoh and his armies, along with Moses and his people, along with me & you, would stand still & recall what we did in this life, then God gives us his sentence.
There, the test ends. Actually, that's the main point -if not the main & only objective too- of the Quran.

Quran 20:86 So Moses returned to his people in a state of indignation and sorrow. He said: "O my people! did not your Lord make a handsome promise to you? Did then the promise seem to you long (in coming)? Or did ye desire that Wrath should descend from your Lord on you, and so ye broke your promise to me?"

Your chronological order of the verses is wrong.
This verse happened before 20:86 :

Sura 20 : Verse 78

"Then the Pharaoh followed them with his army, but the sea overpowered and engulfed them."

Hence, it's the same sura..make sure to go back a few pages/verses to know how the story went from the beginning.
Actually God did give the people of Moses their victory. Which is why Moses was angry on his people.

If I was Allah, I would have prevented them from becoming slaves in the first place. That way, no innocent Egyptians get killed and nobody gets their free will taken away. I would be a deity that doesn't just assert that humans get free will; I would defend it too. So when people are taken as slaves I would condemn the slave masters.

This is not paradise. It's a testing ground where humans see what awaits them if God wasn't in control. And even though God still brings the rain, makes the sun shine, blossoms the flowers & comforts us with hours of sleeping -breaks from this heavy test-, it is still grim..

I do find it ironic that Allah didn't like the followers of Moses being kept as slaves and gives details in the Quran on keeping slaves. Why the double standard? Like in Muhammad's day, everyone in Pharaoh's day was taking slaves.

There are plenty of Iyaht on the subject of slavery in the Quran. You can say "the Quran had specific rules for how slaves to be treated" or how the freeing of slaves is a great act, etc. And that's fine, but would you keep a slave if given the chance? If not, why not?

The Quran actually, orders Muslims to free slaves. The term "Molk Yameen" is about housing a person who doesn't have any kind of other home or source of income.

Being that, nothing obligates to live a slave's life; they are in the rank of a refugee. Instead of putting them in "camps", house them with a Muslim family, and with that they turn into "Molk Yameen" : they get a home, a steady source of income.

As for slaves, please don't ignore this command from the Quran :

Sura 90 : Verse 13
(Verse 11) Yet he has not assaulted the steep;
(Verse 12) And what will explain to thee the path that is steep?-
(Verse 13) (It is) to free a slave,

Though the Hadiths, did indeed forge & mutate to support "slavery" even though the Quran said the above..Of course MrNoMorePropaganda as I said in my topic, they couldn't bear a book that orders them to free slaves. So they would turn "Molk Yameen" into "Abd", indeed. Then throw it on Mohammed and say : when he said Molk Yameen, he meant "Abd".

I'm sure if you went to the Yemen and abducted some Akhdam for yourself, nobody, besides the immediate family, would care. Or, if people of colour aren't your thing, how about some Zabaleen? The Fascist Egyptian government has treated the Zabaleen terribly so maybe you can give them a better life as a slave? For example, they took away all of their pigs and used Swine Flu as the excuse. And then there was chaos, because it turns out pigs are not actually that bad, or at least not as bad as the Quran claims they are.

So what's stopping you? The Quran allows you take slaves after all. I'm sure it's your ability to empathize that's telling you that slavery is wrong.

Sorry the Quran forbids me from doing so.. never been into slavery anyways.
Hey, after all, a slave can't take slaves, right ? aren't we all slaves under the fat cats who have the 50% of the world's wealth ? http://www.forbes.com/sites/laurashin/20...n-poorest/

But yeah, the Quran is the one that encourages slavery..Ironic ain't it ? in terms of research though, not a single verse in the Quran orders you to take slaves; be my guest & search.
Though if you come back with a "Molk Yameen" verse, remember what I said above, though I don't mind telling the difference again between THAT & SLAVERY. Unless you consider housing a poor individual with your family as slavery.

[ReptilianPeon]

I think if we met somewhere other than Atheist Forums we'd probably be friends. I remember there was this nice poem about an Englishman who met a German in a pub during World War One, I think it was, and he knew that if he met him on the battlefield they would certainly not be friends. Not that I consider this forum a battlefield. As we're here, I will try my best to present an argument.

In regard to those Hadirh about Chess: I don't know why, but they randomly came into my head. Yes, I was incorrect. I checked, and ther are a few Hadith, and you're correct that it was not Muhammad.

I really don't like Hadith precisely because it is a minefield, as you so eloquently put it yourself. If I start quoting Hadith someone doesn't think are authentic then I'm wasting my time. It's always best to stick to Quran in my opinion.

Quran: You have Tafsir for Iyaht, some Iyaht being related to certain Hadith, some people like to check what the Sahabah said and might also have to consider the time period the Tasfir was written in, and be mindful of the translation too. I don't like post science in the Quran narrative Qurans because I think they are biased and translated by Saudi stooges.

Moses story:

So Allah tests people by allowing many to die? I'm not sure I like how dismissive you are of mass killing. Like how when those hundreds of people died in Mecca this month (from the crane collapse and stampede)?

But let's examine this test narrative more closely:

Why test the followers of Moses in this way but not the followers of others? Isn't it interesting that all of the stories in the Quran are confined to this tiny section of the Earth? Why didn't Allah test the followers of Confucius or Buddha?

Every test is unique, which I don't think is fair. Don't you think that if life was really a test then there would be a standard set of circumstances? Teachers don't give their students different exams depending on how much they want a particular student to suffer. Every student in a class does the same test and they are judged against a standard set of criteria. So I reiterate: Life is not a fair test.

Quran 20:86

Fine; let's not dwell on that. But what I will say is that nothing happens except that which Allah wills; that's why people say insha'Allah all the time. So everything that happened was because of Allah.

Allah didn't have to create Satan in the first place. Satan knows that it will eventually lose. So why bother to fight Allah at all? Why defy Allah when you know it's impossible to win?

In regard to slavery:

I'm pointing out the hypocrisy. A deity that allows slavery to take place must not value free will. If my free will was taken away by a kidnapper Allah would do nothing because apparently the free will of criminal(s) is more important than the free will of the victims.

Is Allah putting me in the position of helping to test a person if I were to take away their free will in some way? What if I don't want to? You're saying Allah allowed Satan to control Pharaoh and took away their free will. Of course, the Quran says that humans were created weak so we can't be expected to fight against Satan (even though we are).

What I was hoping for is a condemnation of slavery, and I think your answer is sufficient. At least you're argument is somewhat better than Christians don't want to condemn slavery. They just dismiss it as “Old Testament”, as if that's an argument.

The Quran might not tell people to keep slaves (something I'd dispute), but does it expressly tell them not to keep slaves? In some verses, the Quran worded in such a way like it knows people around Muhammad take/have slaves. Quran 33:55 mentions slaves, as does Quran 33:50.

Try telling telling the Arab slave traders of old that the Quran tells them to free slaves. Quickly, you'll find that Quran interpretation is often driven by one's desires. Did you know that people used the Bible to both attack and support slavery? Some people asserted (and probably still do) the Bible allows slaves and that's how the American Civil War started.

But in regard to your comments about wealth: No, we're not all slaves. But I think we need to define what a slave is. I think you're confusing slavery with oppression. True, many slaves are oppressed – but simply because someone is oppressed doesn't mean they are slave. When I think of slaves I think of the Arab or Atlantic slave trades.

If people have the will they can change things. We saw it in Cuba, for example. Cuba was dominated by imperialism for much of its history and then they had their revolution. And now Cubans live free from the rich elites that would like to dominate poor countries. In fact, things are so good in Cuba now that Cubans can expect to live just as long as Americans. Personally, I would much rather live in Cuba than under the Sharia.

I'm not saying living where I am now is bad. However I do realize that exploitation of poor people helps to maintain the standard of living in my country. This saddens me and I hope it changes. I do my best avoid retailers that exploit poor people.

[WinterHold]

[Wyrd of Gawd]

[WinterHold]

MrNoMorePropaganda

Try telling telling the Arab slave traders of old that the Quran tells them to free slaves. Quickly, you'll find that Quran interpretation is often driven by one's desires. Did you know that people used the Bible to both attack and support slavery? Some people asserted (and probably still do) the Bible allows slaves and that's how the American Civil War started.

Yes; that, a weight too heavy to bear, the religion -to their logic- couldn't keep its current state -that in the time of Mohammed-..it had to be forged.
I never knew the details about such thing -christianity & slavery-. Yet I'm aware that the confederation states allowed it -with a religious flavor-, but most my info came from the novel "uncle tom" & movies, to be honest.

But in regard to your comments about wealth: No, we're not all slaves. But I think we need to define what a slave is. I think you're confusing slavery with oppression. True, many slaves are oppressed – but simply because someone is oppressed doesn't mean they are slave. When I think of slaves I think of the Arab or Atlantic slave trades.

The argument about it is that it's a new form of slavery. Thinking about it in an abstract way, we are bound to be slaves to the brands and mega fast food chains, while being forced to act within a banking system that makes the fat cats fatter via loans with interest. Egypt is an example : the bankers keep offering loans until the debt is technically impossible to pay; Britian too has a loan that dates to hundreds of years, for a country stuck in such whirlwind, it has to offer the bankers and elite businessmen more ground to invest in (i.e selling its land), hence go to full-scale wars at sometimes to repay the debt..

Countries that get broken, literally send people to work as maids (since the income in the country at debt is too low), a case seen everyday in Saudi Araba with Bengali maids & workers who get scorched for days under the hot sun of Arabia just for the sake of a better income..

You can't take gold anywhere with you; too, to escape this economical imprisonment. I see it as a different type of slavery.
Do we really have a free will with such conditions ?

If people have the will they can change things. We saw it in Cuba, for example. Cuba was dominated by imperialism for much of its history and then they had their revolution. And now Cubans live free from the rich elites that would like to dominate poor countries. In fact, things are so good in Cuba now that Cubans can expect to live just as long as Americans. Personally, I would much rather live in Cuba than under the Sharia.

God bless the comandante
I remember reading his diary when I was a child -che-, until today I remember the miracle of his victory. What were the odds ? yes; if people stacked together for the right cause miracles can happen. And the cause of that movement was something good.
Yes, one of the most legit examples one might ever bring.. change can happen after all if people had the heart & will for it.

Honestly, I do too. Such country is better than a forged, fake sharia.
God never forgets those who did good. And that the cause that wins, no matter what.

I'm not saying living where I am now is bad. However I do realize that exploitation of poor people helps to maintain the standard of living in my country. This saddens me and I hope it changes. I do my best avoid retailers that exploit poor people.

We all must try our best within the conditions we were born to. I too don't like it where I'm. But ain't it the new world order that we have to live under ? all exploit all..

[ReptilianPeon]

[WinterHold]

[Mystic]

Although you are right that many accepted Sunni and Shia hadiths contradict the Quran, you have not brought any proof that we ought to not follow hadiths that don't contradict the Quran.