Dear Christians

[Minimalist]

You guys are like the penal code.

[Caecilian]

I'm afraid that I'm going to be on the other side on this one, guys.

Tackattack is quite right when he says:

If you wear a crucifix and pray to it instead of God, that is idolatry

An idol is something that you worship. Christians don't worship crucifixes- crucifixes may be an aid to worship (by helping the believer focus on jesus), but thats completely different from being an idol.

There are good atheist arguments and bad atheist arguments. This is one of the latter.

[Thor]

Yeah, you're not supposed to make a graven image. But if you walk into a church, what do you see? Graven images everywhere! The church can't even follow its own commandments!

[Watson]

C'mon Watson. Respond to the post.

I already have. One hundred and seventy million times on this site. Go look at any of my other posts about the Bible, and my comments on it.

As for graven images, if I'm not mistaken, a graven image is any image crated with the intent of worship as an idol above or beyond God. If it is simply a biblical picture or image of some sort, it is not a graven image.

[Thor]

As for graven images, if I'm not mistaken, a graven image is any image crated with the intent of worship as an idol above or beyond God. If it is simply a biblical picture or image of some sort, it is not a graven image.

I think you're wrong.

Here's what the commandment says, "Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image, or any likeness of any thing that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth."

Now, let's say you're correct in that "graven image" refers to an image that is used as a focal point for worship. (It doesn't specifically say that, but let's go with it.) In fact, Webster's defines "graven image" thusly: "an object of worship carved usually from wood or stone".

I don't know about you, but I've seen many people paying homage to statues and pictures of Jesus and Mary (not to mention numerous saints). Are these people not praying to a "graven image"?

[Watson]

They pay homage to them; that does not mean that they worship them as Gods. Praying and worshipping are not the same thing. "Thou shalt have no other gods but me" applies here, because as long as you aren't worshipping the image as a god, it isn't graven.

[Thor]

They pay homage to them; that does not mean that they worship them as Gods. Praying and worshipping are not the same thing. "Thou shalt have no other gods but me" applies here, because as long as you aren't worshipping the image as a god, it isn't graven.

And this is NOT what the commandment says. It simply states that you are not to MAKE a graven image. Aren't statues of Jesus, Mary and saints "graven images"? And if you want to argue that people are only praying to "Jesus" or "Mary" and not "worshipping" them... well, good luck with that. Because I've seen people worshipping Jesus by praying to a statue of him. Sounds like you want to use semantics to argue your way out of this one.

[fr0d0]

If people are actually worshipping the images/ statues/ etc, then that's anti Christian. That's their lookout. People are only people and prone to failure.

[Xyster]

Yes but it also go's one step further as to say "or any likeness of ANYTHING that is......" Me personaly I would go with nothing. It looks more like christians (and jews for that matter) are treading in a grey area and praying they are right. It could be looked at as an Idol even if it is of your god or has somthing to do with your god it clearly says thou shalt not make image or likeness of anything... From the reading of the commandment if you some how met god and took a picture then made a statue of HIM/HER/IT you would still be in violation....


But then again lucky for you it's just all made up.....

[chatpilot]

Some people that I have encountered one of which is my grandmother who is a devout catholic and has graven images of various saints throughout her home, actually do pray to the saints and considers them intercessors between them and their god. On the other hand I have seen and met people that use images of saints as an aid to faith. I think that even paying homage to a saint is a sin because the bible states clearly supposedly out of the mouth of the fictional Jesus himself:

John 14:6
Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.

In fact unless you have read the apocryphal works there is no indication in the accepted bible that you should worship Mary or pray to her for intercession at all. The biblical god actually says in the scriptures that he is a jealous god and shares his glory with no one. I have always thought that having graven images were sinful and the reason for it is evident in the scriptures themselves in the following text:

2 Kings 18:4
4.He removed the high places, and brake the images, and cut down the groves, and brake in pieces the brasen serpent that Moses had made: for unto those days the children of Israel did burn incense to it: and he called it Nehushtan.

The serpent that Moses built to stop the plague of fiery serpents that god himself sent against his people later became an image that was worshiped by the people. So the first thing that Hezekiah did when he began to reign was to destroy that serpent. Even if they weren't worshiping it they were burning incense to it which is a practice that catholics use to this day along with lighting candles and petitioning the saints for their aid in their lives etc.

It is interesting that the Catholic church is the only one that accepts the apocryphal works while all the other protestant groups exclude them.