POLL: What's your definition of an agnostic? Atheist?

[Tiberius]

Yes, but now you are confusing agnosticism with a purely atheistic version of agnosticism. Being an agnostic means you do not have knowledge regarding the existence of Gods as you said, but it does not mean you automatically disbelieve in Gods, which you implied by saying that "an agnostic is an idiot who doesn't realize he's actually an atheist".

Just because you don't have knowledge regarding something's existence, does not rule out the possibility of having belief in something's existence. There are plenty of agnostic theists out there; I'd wager that most theists would be classified as agnostic theists if you asked them to clarify their beliefs (and stance on religious knowledge) properly.

So I reject your notion that agnostics are simply idiotic atheists, and I reaffirm my original position that it is you, not I, that is making the semantic error here.

[rax]

Yes, but now you are confusing agnosticism with a purely atheistic version of agnosticism. Being an agnostic means you do not have knowledge regarding the existence of Gods as you said, but it does not mean you automatically disbelieve in Gods, which you implied by saying that "an agnostic is an idiot who doesn't realize he's actually an atheist".

Just because you don't have knowledge regarding something's existence, does not rule out the possibility of having belief in something's existence. There are plenty of agnostic theists out there; I'd wager that most theists would be classified as agnostic theists if you asked them to clarify their beliefs (and stance on religious knowledge) properly.

Ya, I totally agree with you. I guess I should have clarified a little more. I'm not talking about people who are 'agnostic' in the correct sense of the word. I'm talking about people who claim agnosticism with regard to their belief. I'm not talking about agnostic atheists or agnostic theists, but people who simply say they are agnostic, then go on to say that atheism is stupid because you can't know with certainty that God doesn't exist.

They call themselves agnostic because they define agnosticism like this:
Their definition of agnosticism = weak atheism.
Their definition of all atheism = strong atheism.

Their definitions are wrong, and so they are idiots. Bill Maher, who is awesome by the way, is an example of someone that does this. He's an atheist in every sense of the definition but if you were to call him that to his face he'd say "I'm not an atheist, I'm an agnostic, you can't know with certainty that God doesn't exist like atheists do".
"During Maher's appearance on Larry King Live on August 11, 2005, he said, "I'm not convinced that god exists. But I do allow the possibility. I'm not an atheist. I'm open."" - wiki bill maher
"In an interview with Times Online Maher noted, "I'm not an atheist, though, because the belief that there is no God only mirrors the certitude of religion. No, I'm saying that doubt is the only appropriate response for human beings.""- wiki bill maher

[Tiberius]

I'm glad you clarified what you meant, and I completely agree with the Bill Maher thing. I actually wrote an article couple of years ago pondering whether to write an open letter to him about it: http://atheistblogger.com/2008/10/03/wha...ill-maher/

To be honest, I think a fair share of the blame has to go to Dawkins and his ridiculous scale of belief, which doesn't help the issue. Myself and a theist member of the forums (Arcanus) developed the "Hayter-Braeloch Scale" last year:

NOTES:

i. The word "gods" in the following scale includes: belief in god (singular), gods (plural), God (personal), and goddess (feminine); and beliefs that "gods" are either involved or uninvolved in the world and its affairs (e.g., monotheism, pantheism, deism, etc.).
ii. The word "gnostic" does not refer to the syncretistic religious movements of Gnosticism, but rather to the cogent strength of the arguments for the existence or non-existence of "gods" (i.e., the premises enjoy greater probability than their denials).
iii. The word "agnostic" does not refer to either the knowability of "gods" or to epistemic apathy, but rather to the questionable strength of the arguments for the existence or non-existence of "gods" (i.e., the premises and their denials are equally probable).
iv. The word "theist" does not refer to a belief in a god who rules the universe, but to belief in god generally. It is the opposite of atheism rather than distinct from deism.

1. Gnostic Theist
Those who believe that gods exist, and hold that the existence of gods can be conclusively established.

2. Agnostic Theist
Those who believe that gods exist, and hold that the existence of gods cannot be conclusively established.

3. Apatheist
Those who are uncertain regarding the existence of gods. They may sometimes 'believe' and other times 'not believe' that gods exist, and question whether the issue has ultimate consequences.

4. Agnostic Atheist
Those who do not believe that gods exist, and hold that the non-existence of gods cannot be conclusively established.

5. Gnostic Atheist
Those who do not believe that gods exist, and hold that the non-existence of gods can be conclusively established.

[Violet]

Good scale

[tackattack]

oo ooo can I be a 1.4?

[Violet]

oo ooo can I be a 1.4?

Only if I can haz cheeseburger

[leo-rcc]

By the way, Maher has accepted the fact that he is an atheist quite some time ago already.

[rax]

By the way, Maher has accepted the fact that he is an atheist quite some time ago already.

Really? That would be awesome. Source?

[tackattack]

oo ooo can I be a 1.4?

Only if I can haz cheeseburger

[Violet]

YUM! You can be a 1.4 now