Responding to the Challenge

[Dotard]

No, not at all. Did my post(s) come across as angry? I am asking for clarification. Is what infidel said what you were proposing? If not then please explain what a "correct" prayer is and how does one do it.

Then we can discuss the challenge using the "Daystar Approved" method of prayer and see if we can get different results.

[Daystar]

No, not at all. Did my post(s) come across as angry? I am asking for clarification. Is what infidel said what you were proposing? If not then please explain what a "correct" prayer is and how does one do it.

Then we can discuss the challenge using the "Daystar Approved" method of prayer and see if we can get different results.

It isn't "Daystar Approved" but I will tell you this, if you really want to put Jehovah to the test, and I really don't think that is the case, but to do that. Pray to Jehovah by name, and through or in the name of Christ Jesus that if he is real and true to reveal himself to you through your own personal study. You own legitimate search for accurate knowledge.

Don't use idols like beads or crosses, in fact get rid of that stuff. If you really are sincere in your request and you are humble you will get what you ask for.

If it is a joke and you don't really want to believe the truth, no matter what the truth is, then you will get what you deserve. What really you are asking for.

[LukeMC]

If we skipped the praying and just searched for knowledge off our own backs, would we not draw the same conclusions?

[Tiberius]

If we skipped the praying and just searched for knowledge off our own backs, would we not draw the same conclusions?

No, we'd come to better conclusions. Such are the ways of science.

[Purple Rabbit]

If it is a joke and you don't really want to believe the truth, no matter what the truth is, then you will get what you deserve. What really you are asking for.

This means you claim you can recognize absolute truth. What are your criteria?

[Ace Otana]

Pray to Jehovah by name, and through or in the name of Christ Jesus that if he is real and true to reveal himself to you through your own personal study.

I think I'll skip the praying part thank you....

Also -

if he is real and true to reveal himself to you through your own personal study

What the hell does that mean? "True to himself to you through your own personal study"? Sorry but as a person of science, I do not understand this. It sounds a little....odd and anti-scientific.

What do you mean by this? Am I to day-dream with my hands collapsed in prayer and interprete my thoughts as words from a non-existent being?

I couldn't do that.

[Daystar]

If we skipped the praying and just searched for knowledge off our own backs, would we not draw the same conclusions?

Knowledge off your own backs? Knowledge regarding what? General knowledge? Knowledge of God? What does John 17:3 say regarding the latter?

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If we skipped the praying and just searched for knowledge off our own backs, would we not draw the same conclusions?

No, we'd come to better conclusions. Such are the ways of science.

[laughs] I think maybe we all find the answers we want. You are young.

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If it is a joke and you don't really want to believe the truth, no matter what the truth is, then you will get what you deserve. What really you are asking for.

This means you claim you can recognize absolute truth. What are your criteria?

No, this means that you can't recognize absolute truth because you are limited by your criteria.

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I think I'll skip the praying part thank you....

As you wish.

Also -

if he is real and true to reveal himself to you through your own personal study

What the hell does that mean? "True to himself to you through your own personal study"? Sorry but as a person of science, I do not understand this. It sounds a little....odd and anti-scientific.

It isn't about science. He will reveal himself to be true to you through your own personal study if you really are interested in finding the answer. If to you God is a joke then what would be the point in him revealing himself to you.

What we were talking about is Atheists having prayed and found no response.

When I was an Atheist and I began to study the Bible in order to debunk it I prayed a sincere prayer to Jehovah God to do a specific thing if he was true. A thing that wouldn't happen otherwise of its own accord. He did that thing while I prayed. Actually I prayed the night before and was praying again that morning and he made the thing happen.

What do you mean by this? Am I to day-dream with my hands collapsed in prayer and interprete my thoughts as words from a non-existent being?

I couldn't do that.

Nor could I.

[lukec]

So when you prayed sincerely, as an "atheist" (which, of course, is impossible, thus the quotations) Jehova proved Himself to you? As a small aside, here is my favorite bit from any Douglas Adams book:

"I refuse to prove that I exist," says God, "for proof denies faith, and without faith I am nothing."
"But," says Man, "the Babel fish is a dead giveaway isn't it? It could not have evolved by chance. It proves that You exist, and so therefore, by Your own arguments, You don't. Q.E.D."
"Oh dear," says God, "I hadn't thought of that," and promptly vanishes in a puff of logic.
"Oh, that was easy," says Man, and for an encore goes on to prove that black is white and gets himself killed on the next zebra crossing.

Also, Daystar, you've brought up this point or a similar one before: "You are young." And I think perhaps you should be wary of prejudicing yourself against what other people think based on what conclusions you've drawn about them. Age does not indicate wisdom, and if you are dismissing what people younger than you say based simply on their age, you've got to clear your head. I find that, although you have what seems to be a good grasp of the hebrew bible, you are not particularly well versed in the sciences, and in fact often stubbornly refuse to look into things that we talk about here. Should I then attribute this to your age, and say to myself, "Oh he's old, and set in his ways." I'd rather not, because no one's going to learn a thing.

[Edwardo Piet]

[laughs] I think maybe we all find the answers we want. You are young.

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Hang on. Is this more about the answers we merely desire, or about the answers that are actually the most likely truths to be true explanations about real reality in the universe?

[Daystar]

So when you prayed sincerely, as an "atheist" (which, of course, is impossible, thus the quotations) Jehova proved Himself to you?

As an "atheist" I believed that God most likely didn't exist, but I knew that to reach him in prayer I had to sincerely consider the possibility that I was wrong. I did reach him and he answered.

Also, Daystar, you've brought up this point or a similar one before: "You are young." And I think perhaps you should be wary of prejudicing yourself against what other people think based on what conclusions you've drawn about them. Age does not indicate wisdom, and if you are dismissing what people younger than you say based simply on their age, you've got to clear your head.

Look at the context that was written in. You people are the most one sided people I have ever had contact with. You dump all over my beliefs like they are a joke and not worth the time to consider but when I throw you a little shit you start whining like little girls.

You - are - young. Just as I was when I thought like you. I have learned a lot since then and don't hold it against me if I think the same is possible for you all.

I find that, although you have what seems to be a good grasp of the hebrew bible, you are not particularly well versed in the sciences, and in fact often stubbornly refuse to look into things that we talk about here. Should I then attribute this to your age, and say to myself, "Oh he's old, and set in his ways." I'd rather not, because no one's going to learn a thing.

Bullshit. What a stupid thing to say. One of the first things you said to me was that I couldn't use the Bible to show you what God was about. All I have spent my time talking about here almost since day one is what you believe, and although I am not particularly knowledgeable in science I know more about what you believe than you know what I believe. I'm reading Dawkins! [Expletive removed]

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[laughs] I think maybe we all find the answers we want. You are young.

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Hang on. Is this more about the answers we merely desire, or about the answers that are actually the most likely truths to be true explanations about real reality in the universe?

More about the answers you merely desire.