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No, no you're both (Caecilian and Paul) missing the point of inclusiveness. It's a counter to the idea that non-believers have that " So if you're not a Christian you're going to hell" schtick. It's the stance of a lot of non-denominational Church movements. We're not saying sure anyone can get into heaven either mind you. It would be completely unreasonable though, for God to punish people who's only exposure to his grace would be from nature (some remote tribe) or who didn't have the mental fascilities to understand the message (mentallly disabled or children). People before Jesus still got into heaven, so Jesus obviously isn't the only way. Since Jesus, and if you know of the message, the only way to God is through Jesus' teachings. For instance you're blind and in a third world country with no access to religion. You still have the laws of God written on your heart (for literalist atheists that means inherit to your nature) and can therefore get into heaven. The main message being that God only requires as much belief and faith as he's revealed in his Grace. It's not our responsibility to have faith, it's God's responsibility to show us reasons to have faith in him. Remember, true faith isn't without notitia, which requires illumination from God. Similarly, someone could live in absolute blind faith their entire life and speak about God and believe without a shadow of a doubt that God exists and pray to baby jesus all the time and not get into heaven. This is described as happening in the Bible, he spoke to Phillip about it and in the parable of the narrow door. I think the Christian movement sees people like muslims, LDS, and Jews as going to "Hell" (wth ever that is), not because they're sinners or they're "god" isn't the same "God" but because they intentionally turn away from Jesus' teachings. Jews before Jesus obviously got into heaven, that's in the Bible to I'm pretty sure. Breakdown from a Christian perspective:
1-For God to know you he's had to reveal himself to you
2-For you to know God you have to either
a) had the message of Jesus brought to you
b) acknowledge revelations God has for you
3- To qualify for eternity both 1 and 2 have to had happened and yoou have to follow that path he's provided for you.
4- You're left outside the door to eternal life if you turn away from either 1 or 2 or the path they lead to.
I hope that explains it a little better.
Hmmm...I've re-read this post several times. I'm still not sure if I entirely understand it. Very interesting, to say the least- I've never come across this type of christian worldview before. Tackattack continues to provide us with food for thought.
Okay, so assuming that I have more or less understood the inclusive position properly:
1. Does everyone have the laws of god inherent in their nature? I'm assuming that they do.
2. Lets say someone is an atheist, without a shred of religious belief, e.g. myself. It seems to me that I still get 'punished' in that whatever path god has laid out for me, I haven't taken it. And I've been exposed to plenty of christianity, but rejected it outright- often with considerable vehemence. So its hellfire for Caecilian. Despite the fact that I've spent most of my adult life working with people with mental health problems, learning difficulties and/or autism, and have very certainly done more good in the world than harm.
3. But heres the weird thing- if I'd never been exposed to christianity at all, I'd apparently still have a shot at heaven. So the very worst thing that a christian can do is try to increase awareness of christianity in countries with other faiths. If the people there don't know about jesus then they can go to heaven. But if they know and reject, then its eternal torment.
Why should god be judging us on the basis of faith? Why should it matter what we believe in? It seems very silly to me. I mean if you were to say that all democrats/ republicans/ independents (delete as appropriate) justly deserved to be tortured for eternity, that would rightly be seen as an over-reaction. And yet what christians say is very similar- 'you don't believe in this, so you'll burn forever'
And whats really appalling is that they seem to think that this is right and just.
Christianity is deeply immoral. That seems clear. Not only crazy, but ethically unacceptable, evil even.
He who desires to worship God must harbor no childish illusions about the matter but bravely renounce his liberty and humanity.
Mikhail Bakunin
A casual stroll through the lunatic asylum shows that faith does not prove anything
Friedrich Nietzsche
(June 9, 2010 at 9:03 pm)Minimalist Wrote: There's 30,000+ sects of xtianity who would gladly burn your fanny at the stake for maintaining such a position.
I don't have a fanny. (here 'fanny' or 'fan' is slang for 'vagina')
We also spell it 'arse',an 'ass' being a small beast of burden related to a donkey..
June 12, 2010 at 2:31 am (This post was last modified: June 12, 2010 at 2:53 am by tackattack.)
(June 11, 2010 at 12:49 pm)Caecilian Wrote:
(June 11, 2010 at 12:21 am)tackattack Wrote:
No, no you're both (Caecilian and Paul) missing the point of inclusiveness. It's a counter to the idea that non-believers have that " So if you're not a Christian you're going to hell" schtick. It's the stance of a lot of non-denominational Church movements. We're not saying sure anyone can get into heaven either mind you. It would be completely unreasonable though, for God to punish people who's only exposure to his grace would be from nature (some remote tribe) or who didn't have the mental fascilities to understand the message (mentallly disabled or children). People before Jesus still got into heaven, so Jesus obviously isn't the only way. Since Jesus, and if you know of the message, the only way to God is through Jesus' teachings. For instance you're blind and in a third world country with no access to religion. You still have the laws of God written on your heart (for literalist atheists that means inherit to your nature) and can therefore get into heaven. The main message being that God only requires as much belief and faith as he's revealed in his Grace. It's not our responsibility to have faith, it's God's responsibility to show us reasons to have faith in him. Remember, true faith isn't without notitia, which requires illumination from God. Similarly, someone could live in absolute blind faith their entire life and speak about God and believe without a shadow of a doubt that God exists and pray to baby jesus all the time and not get into heaven. This is described as happening in the Bible, he spoke to Phillip about it and in the parable of the narrow door. I think the Christian movement sees people like muslims, LDS, and Jews as going to "Hell" (wth ever that is), not because they're sinners or they're "god" isn't the same "God" but because they intentionally turn away from Jesus' teachings. Jews before Jesus obviously got into heaven, that's in the Bible to I'm pretty sure. Breakdown from a Christian perspective:
1-For God to know you he's had to reveal himself to you
2-For you to know God you have to either
a) had the message of Jesus brought to you
b) acknowledge revelations God has for you
3- To qualify for eternity both 1 and 2 have to had happened and yoou have to follow that path he's provided for you.
4- You're left outside the door to eternal life if you turn away from either 1 or 2 or the path they lead to.
I hope that explains it a little better.
Hmmm...I've re-read this post several times. I'm still not sure if I entirely understand it. Very interesting, to say the least- I've never come across this type of christian worldview before. Tackattack continues to provide us with food for thought.
Okay, so assuming that I have more or less understood the inclusive position properly:
1. Does everyone have the laws of god inherent in their nature? I'm assuming that they do.
2. Lets say someone is an atheist, without a shred of religious belief, e.g. myself. It seems to me that I still get 'punished' in that whatever path god has laid out for me, I haven't taken it. And I've been exposed to plenty of christianity, but rejected it outright- often with considerable vehemence. So its hellfire for Caecilian. Despite the fact that I've spent most of my adult life working with people with mental health problems, learning difficulties and/or autism, and have very certainly done more good in the world than harm.
3. But heres the weird thing- if I'd never been exposed to christianity at all, I'd apparently still have a shot at heaven. So the very worst thing that a christian can do is try to increase awareness of christianity in countries with other faiths. If the people there don't know about jesus then they can go to heaven. But if they know and reject, then its eternal torment.
Why should god be judging us on the basis of faith? Why should it matter what we believe in? It seems very silly to me. I mean if you were to say that all democrats/ republicans/ independents (delete as appropriate) justly deserved to be tortured for eternity, that would rightly be seen as an over-reaction. And yet what christians say is very similar- 'you don't believe in this, so you'll burn forever'
And whats really appalling is that they seem to think that this is right and just.
Christianity is deeply immoral. That seems clear. Not only crazy, but ethically unacceptable, evil even.
1- Anyone who has the mental capacity for individual thought. Children would be covered because they are individuals and have their own thoughts regardless of their ability to critically self-examine or conceptualize. nimals would be covered if you think that they think. I personally don't care if Fido can think.
2- Correct you are turning away from the message of Jesus, and have the ability to rationally choose between following or fighting. It is possible in theory that you weren't given God's message as he meant to give it to you.. for instance: Preacher comes and tells you about God, now he throws in some lies and misinterpretations to make the offer seem more exciing. That's not God's message so I would say God won't fault you forcalling an arse an arse. If you are being witnessed to, that witnessing terminates as soon as they say something contray to God's nature and plan. Now after the preacher leaves you go to your garden and you're thinking about how pissed ou are that the preacher lied. You wish God would be real, but you're upset and let down. Something catches your eye and there's a particular brilliance and vibrance to your garden that's abnormal. Some butterflies like you've never seen flutter around and you dismiss it and get back to gardening. (A Christian would accept that as a sign if they're used to seeing it) So you're looking down and you swear that a group of beetles was actually forming the shape of a heart or actual words or something. If you dismiss both then yes you've turned against God's plan and are in denial of God, and thus sinning. From a Chistian view it's not about the deeds it's about the denial.
3- No you can be in a place and have no knowledge of Jesus' message and still "go to hell". If you know in your heart it's wrong to kill, then still kill the man, and have no knowledge of Jesus' then you're going against the laws that are written on your heart wich is against God.
I'm trying to show you that 'you don't believe in this, so you'll burn forever' doesn't equal inclusivness or the non-denominational Christian stances I've seen. I'm saying we all have the choice to stand in the rain or go inside. If you deny that it's raining don't bitch if you get wet. We'll never know while we're alive what happens. The afterlife either exists or doesn't, that's where we fundamentally differ. Deepply immoral snd evil .. sigh check the sig. I think you're view is definately skewed. If we can't get past that bias then we'll just have to agree to disagree.
"There ought to be a term that would designate those who actually follow the teachings of Jesus, since the word 'Christian' has been largely divorced from those teachings, and so polluted by fundamentalists that it has come to connote their polar opposite: intolerance, vindictive hatred, and bigotry." -- Philip Stater, Huffington Post
always working on cleaning my windows- me regarding Johari
June 12, 2010 at 3:23 am (This post was last modified: June 12, 2010 at 3:24 am by Oldandeasilyconfused.)
(June 11, 2010 at 9:52 pm)Minimalist Wrote: As George Bernard Shaw said..."The British and the Americans are two peoples separated by a common language."
I guess Australia is even worse!
Indeed; we have the great good fortune to be a very long way from both America and England. Also,to foreigners at least, Australia also lacks regional accents.
Fortunately we still spell correctly, unlike America ,which invented an entirely new lexicon ,and new table manners,just to piss off the English. I can think of few nobler motives.
No, no you're both (Caecilian and Paul) missing the point of inclusiveness. It's a counter to the idea that non-believers have that " So if you're not a Christian you're going to hell" schtick. It's the stance of a lot of non-denominational Church movements. We're not saying sure anyone can get into heaven either mind you. It would be completely unreasonable though, for God to punish people who's only exposure to his grace would be from nature (some remote tribe) or who didn't have the mental fascilities to understand the message (mentallly disabled or children). People before Jesus still got into heaven, so Jesus obviously isn't the only way. Since Jesus, and if you know of the message, the only way to God is through Jesus' teachings. For instance you're blind and in a third world country with no access to religion. You still have the laws of God written on your heart (for literalist atheists that means inherit to your nature) and can therefore get into heaven. The main message being that God only requires as much belief and faith as he's revealed in his Grace. It's not our responsibility to have faith, it's God's responsibility to show us reasons to have faith in him. Remember, true faith isn't without notitia, which requires illumination from God. Similarly, someone could live in absolute blind faith their entire life and speak about God and believe without a shadow of a doubt that God exists and pray to baby jesus all the time and not get into heaven. This is described as happening in the Bible, he spoke to Phillip about it and in the parable of the narrow door. I think the Christian movement sees people like muslims, LDS, and Jews as going to "Hell" (wth ever that is), not because they're sinners or they're "god" isn't the same "God" but because they intentionally turn away from Jesus' teachings. Jews before Jesus obviously got into heaven, that's in the Bible to I'm pretty sure. Breakdown from a Christian perspective:
1-For God to know you he's had to reveal himself to you
2-For you to know God you have to either [
a) had the message of Jesus brought to you
b) acknowledge revelations God has for you
3- To qualify for eternity both 1 and 2 have to had happened and yoou have to follow that path he's provided for you.
4- You're left outside the door to eternal life if you turn away from either 1 or 2 or the path they lead to.
I hope that explains it a little better.
And from whence do you derive this knowledge? as I don't recall seeing it in the bible.
Or this another example of xtians trying to make their religion more palatable?
If you're not supposed to ride faster than your guardian angel can fly then mine had better get a bloody SR-71.
It seems tackattack's god is a cafetaria-model type of god. You don't restrict yourself in picking from the bible. Which is fine by me actually, everybody has the right to fabulate his own god concept into existence. It's a human right.
"I'm like a rabbit suddenly trapped, in the blinding headlights of vacuous crap" - Tim Minchin in "Storm"
Christianity is perfect bullshit, christians are not - Purple Rabbit, honouring CS Lewis
Faith is illogical - fr0d0
(June 11, 2010 at 12:21 am)tackattack Wrote: [hide]No, no you're both (Caecilian and Paul) missing the point of inclusiveness. It's a counter to the idea that non-believers have that " So if you're not a Christian you're going to hell" schtick. It's the stance of a lot of non-denominational Church movements. We're not saying sure anyone can get into heaven either mind you. It would be completely unreasonable though, for God to punish people who's only exposure to his grace would be from nature (some remote tribe) or who didn't have the mental fascilities to understand the message (mentallly disabled or children). People before Jesus still got into heaven, so Jesus obviously isn't the only way. Since Jesus, and if you know of the message, the only way to God is through Jesus' teachings. For instance you're blind and in a third world country with no access to religion. You still have the laws of God written on your heart (for literalist atheists that means inherit to your nature) and can therefore get into heaven. The main message being that God only requires as much belief and faith as he's revealed in his Grace. It's not our responsibility to have faith, it's God's responsibility to show us reasons to have faith in him. Remember, true faith isn't without notitia, which requires illumination from God. Similarly, someone could live in absolute blind faith their entire life and speak about God and believe without a shadow of a doubt that God exists and pray to baby jesus all the time and not get into heaven. This is described as happening in the Bible, he spoke to Phillip about it and in the parable of the narrow door. I think the Christian movement sees people like muslims, LDS, and Jews as going to "Hell" (wth ever that is), not because they're sinners or they're "god" isn't the same "God" but because they intentionally turn away from Jesus' teachings. Jews before Jesus obviously got into heaven, that's in the Bible to I'm pretty sure. Breakdown from a Christian perspective:
1-For God to know you he's had to reveal himself to you
2-For you to know God you have to either
a) had the message of Jesus brought to you
b) acknowledge revelations God has for you
3- To qualify for eternity both 1 and 2 have to had happened and yoou have to follow that path he's provided for you.
4- You're left outside the door to eternal life if you turn away from either 1 or 2 or the path they lead to.
I hope that explains it a little better.
Hmmm...I've re-read this post several times. I'm still not sure if I entirely understand it. Very interesting, to say the least- I've never come across this type of christian worldview before. Tackattack continues to provide us with food for thought.
Okay, so assuming that I have more or less understood the inclusive position properly:
1. Does everyone have the laws of god inherent in their nature? I'm assuming that they do.
2. Lets say someone is an atheist, without a shred of religious belief, e.g. myself. It seems to me that I still get 'punished' in that whatever path god has laid out for me, I haven't taken it. And I've been exposed to plenty of christianity, but rejected it outright- often with considerable vehemence. So its hellfire for Caecilian. Despite the fact that I've spent most of my adult life working with people with mental health problems, learning difficulties and/or autism, and have very certainly done more good in the world than harm.
3. But heres the weird thing- if I'd never been exposed to christianity at all, I'd apparently still have a shot at heaven. So the very worst thing that a christian can do is try to increase awareness of christianity in countries with other faiths. If the people there don't know about jesus then they can go to heaven. But if they know and reject, then its eternal torment.
Why should god be judging us on the basis of faith? Why should it matter what we believe in? It seems very silly to me. I mean if you were to say that all democrats/ republicans/ independents (delete as appropriate) justly deserved to be tortured for eternity, that would rightly be seen as an over-reaction. And yet what christians say is very similar- 'you don't believe in this, so you'll burn forever'
And whats really appalling is that they seem to think that this is right and just.
Christianity is deeply immoral. That seems clear. Not only crazy, but ethically unacceptable, evil even.
1- Anyone who has the mental capacity for individual thought. Children would be covered because they are individuals and have their own thoughts regardless of their ability to critically self-examine or conceptualize. nimals would be covered if you think that they think. I personally don't care if Fido can think.
2- Correct you are turning away from the message of Jesus, and have the ability to rationally choose between following or fighting. It is possible in theory that you weren't given God's message as he meant to give it to you.. for instance: Preacher comes and tells you about God, now he throws in some lies and misinterpretations to make the offer seem more exciing. That's not God's message so I would say God won't fault you forcalling an arse an arse. If you are being witnessed to, that witnessing terminates as soon as they say something contray to God's nature and plan. Now after the preacher leaves you go to your garden and you're thinking about how pissed ou are that the preacher lied. You wish God would be real, but you're upset and let down. Something catches your eye and there's a particular brilliance and vibrance to your garden that's abnormal. Some butterflies like you've never seen flutter around and you dismiss it and get back to gardening. (A Christian would accept that as a sign if they're used to seeing it) So you're looking down and you swear that a group of beetles was actually forming the shape of a heart or actual words or something. If you dismiss both then yes you've turned against God's plan and are in denial of God, and thus sinning. From a Chistian view it's not about the deeds it's about the denial.
3- No you can be in a place and have no knowledge of Jesus' message and still "go to hell". If you know in your heart it's wrong to kill, then still kill the man, and have no knowledge of Jesus' then you're going against the laws that are written on your heart wich is against God.
I'm trying to show you that 'you don't believe in this, so you'll burn forever' doesn't equal inclusivness or the non-denominational Christian stances I've seen. I'm saying we all have the choice to stand in the rain or go inside. If you deny that it's raining don't bitch if you get wet. We'll never know while we're alive what happens. The afterlife either exists or doesn't, that's where we fundamentally differ. Deepply immoral snd evil .. sigh check the sig. I think you're view is definately skewed. If we can't get past that bias then we'll just have to agree to disagree.[/hide]
Tacky honey.....
Your continued adherence to your world view that includes a deity is proof positive that you are incapable of "individual thought"
You clearly demonstrate that you have a slave mentality and are quite happy to be in that frame of mind. Good luck to you and further 'you have a right to be there / here'
I would posit that YOUR fears rule you and hence you suck off this 'Sky Daddy' to support you mental image of how the world should be and constantly modify it as YOU see fit.
All statements to the effect....for me any way....you are delusional. But hey ... so are many others ...jury is still out as to my own personal level of delusion.
Mind you..... If that fucking Pink Banana doesn't give me back my fishnet stockings soon...there is going to be hell to pay!!
On another matter....SPELL CHECK IS YOUR FRIEND!!!
"The Universe is run by the complex interweaving of three elements: energy, matter, and enlightened self-interest." G'Kar-B5
June 12, 2010 at 7:02 am (This post was last modified: June 12, 2010 at 7:03 am by tackattack.)
(June 12, 2010 at 5:19 am)Zen Badger Wrote:
(June 11, 2010 at 12:21 am)tackattack Wrote: [hide]No, no you're both (Caecilian and Paul) missing the point of inclusiveness. It's a counter to the idea that non-believers have that " So if you're not a Christian you're going to hell" schtick. It's the stance of a lot of non-denominational Church movements. We're not saying sure anyone can get into heaven either mind you. It would be completely unreasonable though, for God to punish people who's only exposure to his grace would be from nature (some remote tribe) or who didn't have the mental fascilities to understand the message (mentallly disabled or children). People before Jesus still got into heaven, so Jesus obviously isn't the only way. Since Jesus, and if you know of the message, the only way to God is through Jesus' teachings. For instance you're blind and in a third world country with no access to religion. You still have the laws of God written on your heart (for literalist atheists that means inherit to your nature) and can therefore get into heaven. The main message being that God only requires as much belief and faith as he's revealed in his Grace. It's not our responsibility to have faith, it's God's responsibility to show us reasons to have faith in him. Remember, true faith isn't without notitia, which requires illumination from God. Similarly, someone could live in absolute blind faith their entire life and speak about God and believe without a shadow of a doubt that God exists and pray to baby jesus all the time and not get into heaven. This is described as happening in the Bible, he spoke to Phillip about it and in the parable of the narrow door. I think the Christian movement sees people like muslims, LDS, and Jews as going to "Hell" (wth ever that is), not because they're sinners or they're "god" isn't the same "God" but because they intentionally turn away from Jesus' teachings. Jews before Jesus obviously got into heaven, that's in the Bible to I'm pretty sure. Breakdown from a Christian perspective:
1-For God to know you he's had to reveal himself to you
2-For you to know God you have to either
a) had the message of Jesus brought to you
b) acknowledge revelations God has for you
3- To qualify for eternity both 1 and 2 have to had happened and yoou have to follow that path he's provided for you.
4- You're left outside the door to eternal life if you turn away from either 1 or 2 or the path they lead to.
I hope that explains it a little better.
And from whence do you derive this knowledge? as I don't recall seeing it in the bible.
Or this another example of xtians trying to make their religion more palatable?
(June 12, 2010 at 5:29 am)Purple Rabbit Wrote:
It seems tackattack's god is a cafetaria-model type of god. You don't restrict yourself in picking from the bible. Which is fine by me actually, everybody has the right to fabulate his own god concept into existence. It's a human right.
To answer you both the Bible. Zen if you want specific example of references please be specific in your request to shorten my post. PR we've been over this, yes the Bible is a crappy literal list of laws and outdated metaphors. I try and take out as many personifications out as possible and read something for it's entirety and in context. Yes, God is a personal God. Yes, God could, and probably does, exist as an entity outside the known universe. For a concept of God I look to a)ancient scriptures and place their context in my modern life b)personal subjective observations c) logic and reason. I've told you why I don't subscribe to the personifications touted as evil by atheists. I've told you a few of the descriptors I don't see as personifications are the ones I apply and are validated though fellow Christians understanding and personal observation in reality. I'm telling you what you're picking off of the buffet (to continue your metaphor) isn't actually food and you say I'm only picking the good tastey treats off the table. Does that about sum it up?
@ KichigaiNeko- When you bring a valid point to the table and stop calling me honey I'd be more than happy to address any points you have.
"There ought to be a term that would designate those who actually follow the teachings of Jesus, since the word 'Christian' has been largely divorced from those teachings, and so polluted by fundamentalists that it has come to connote their polar opposite: intolerance, vindictive hatred, and bigotry." -- Philip Stater, Huffington Post
always working on cleaning my windows- me regarding Johari
(June 11, 2010 at 12:21 am)tackattack Wrote: [hide]No, no you're both (Caecilian and Paul) missing the point of inclusiveness. It's a counter to the idea that non-believers have that " So if you're not a Christian you're going to hell" schtick. It's the stance of a lot of non-denominational Church movements. We're not saying sure anyone can get into heaven either mind you. It would be completely unreasonable though, for God to punish people who's only exposure to his grace would be from nature (some remote tribe) or who didn't have the mental fascilities to understand the message (mentallly disabled or children). People before Jesus still got into heaven, so Jesus obviously isn't the only way. Since Jesus, and if you know of the message, the only way to God is through Jesus' teachings. For instance you're blind and in a third world country with no access to religion. You still have the laws of God written on your heart (for literalist atheists that means inherit to your nature) and can therefore get into heaven. The main message being that God only requires as much belief and faith as he's revealed in his Grace. It's not our responsibility to have faith, it's God's responsibility to show us reasons to have faith in him. Remember, true faith isn't without notitia, which requires illumination from God. Similarly, someone could live in absolute blind faith their entire life and speak about God and believe without a shadow of a doubt that God exists and pray to baby jesus all the time and not get into heaven. This is described as happening in the Bible, he spoke to Phillip about it and in the parable of the narrow door. I think the Christian movement sees people like muslims, LDS, and Jews as going to "Hell" (wth ever that is), not because they're sinners or they're "god" isn't the same "God" but because they intentionally turn away from Jesus' teachings. Jews before Jesus obviously got into heaven, that's in the Bible to I'm pretty sure. Breakdown from a Christian perspective:
1-For God to know you he's had to reveal himself to you
2-For you to know God you have to either
a) had the message of Jesus brought to you
b) acknowledge revelations God has for you
3- To qualify for eternity both 1 and 2 have to had happened and yoou have to follow that path he's provided for you.
4- You're left outside the door to eternal life if you turn away from either 1 or 2 or the path they lead to.
I hope that explains it a little better.
And from whence do you derive this knowledge? as I don't recall seeing it in the bible.
Or this another example of xtians trying to make their religion more palatable?
(June 12, 2010 at 5:29 am)Purple Rabbit Wrote:
It seems tackattack's god is a cafetaria-model type of god. You don't restrict yourself in picking from the bible. Which is fine by me actually, everybody has the right to fabulate his own god concept into existence. It's a human right.
To answer you both the Bible. Zen if you want specific example of references please be specific in your request to shorten my post. PR we've been over this, yes the Bible is a crappy literal list of laws and outdated metaphors. I try and take out as many personifications out as possible and read something for it's entirety and in context. Yes, God is a personal God. Yes, God could, and probably does, exist as an entity outside the known universe. For a concept of God I look to a)ancient scriptures and place their context in my modern life b)personal subjective observations c) logic and reason. I've told you why I don't subscribe to the personifications touted as evil by atheists. I've told you a few of the descriptors I don't see as personifications are the ones I apply and are validated though fellow Christians understanding and personal observation in reality. I'm telling you what you're picking off of the buffet (to continue your metaphor) isn't actually food and you say I'm only picking the good tastey treats off the table. Does that about sum it up?
@ KichigaiNeko- When you bring a valid point to the table and stop calling me honey I'd be more than happy to address any points you have.
But sweetie
The valid point is that you adhere to this so call 'good book' of yours that really should be banned by the Geneva convention....
![[Image: mybannerglitter06eee094.gif]](https://images.weserv.nl/?url=i118.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fo112%2Fpussinboots_photos%2FBikes%2Fmybannerglitter06eee094.gif)
