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(November 8, 2015 at 2:20 pm)drfuzzy Wrote: As some of you know by now, playing Mass on Sunday always leaves me with posting fodder. Then I log in for a dose of sanity, and drop some of my rambling ruminations into a thread. Take it or leave it, discuss it or not - - just THANK YOU for being here.
Do you make enough money playing for a mass that you can't quit the job. Why continue to punish yourself?
Quote:FAIRY TALES
As I drove to work, I heard an NPR interview of Michael Cunningham. This is a brilliant author who has recently focused on re-writing fairy tales. When you condense his statements about fairy tales in modern times, the meta-message was: we have outgrown them. They no longer make sense to us, because they tend to be built on a very black and white dichotomy. (You have the evil character, the hero, and the princess, in some combination, most of the time.) So I went into the choir loft with "we have outgrown our fairy tales, and secular sources understand this".
We haven't outgrown fairy tales at all. Kids and adults love them. Many "chick flicks" are fairy tales.
Quote:Then I hear a reading from 1 Kings 17. Elijah goes to a widow - she and her household are starving, she only has a handful of flour left to make a cake for herself and her son. Elijah orders her to make HIM a cake first, and trust in the Lord. Because she did so, her jars of flour and oil magically replenished themselves for a long time to come, and her family ate well.
The believers in the pews accept this as a fabulous example of the poor having faith and being rewarded for it. The atheist in the organ loft is saying "wtf???" 1) starving children. But this total stranger usurper jerk had her feed HIM everything they had, taking food away from little ones who don't understand why the adult prophet is eating and they are not. 2) And so the book gives an example of god preventing a widow and her son from starving, because they believed. There are believers starving everywhere - and god could prevent it everywhere, easily - IF the story is true. If this story is true, it only makes god a bigger asshole.
It is a story about about a woman who received from God through her faith in him. Believers starving has nothing to do with the theme of these passages. Jesus told us we would suffer in this life. We all suffer, believers and non-believers alike. If God promised us we wouldn't, it would be a different matter
.
Quote:AND A PSALM OF PRAISE, aka LIES, LIES, and more LIES
Psalm 146 (excerpts): "the Lord gives food to the hungry; gives sight to the blind; the Lord loves the just, but the way of the wicked he thwarts"
The believer in the pews sing this with gusto. They revel in the greatness of their god. The atheist in the organ loft is saying that anybody over the age of 10, in any city on this planet, knows that these statements are lies. The believers are not saved from starvation. The blind stay blind. The "just" are often persecuted. And the wicked have the most money and power everywhere on the planet. Nope. I'm not buying it.
Quote:God did and does these things, both for believers and non-believers. Most of Jesus miracles were done for non-believers. Also, in a true sense, revealing himself to people who don't believe is giving sight to the blind. Giving spiritual insight is giving food. The Lord does love both the just and the unjust alike. And he does thwart the way of the wicked, who will be punished for their wickedness, and so to will the just be rewarded for their being just. You and christians alike should listen to the readings with an open mind.
The Bible says that God still hates Esau and no one ever says any prayers for the devil's soul.
November 10, 2015 at 3:18 am (This post was last modified: November 10, 2015 at 3:20 am by robvalue.)
(November 9, 2015 at 8:47 pm)KevinM1 Wrote:
(November 9, 2015 at 5:38 am)robvalue Wrote: I would say that if I have to have anyone else tell me what the bible really means, God has failed to communicate with me effectively.
Just wanted to say that this post hasn't received enough love.
Thanks very much! Maybe a new line of t-shirts...
Wyrd: I don't get it, are you saying some atheists still believe in a real God character?
Feel free to send me a private message.
Please visit my website here! It's got lots of information about atheism/theism and support for new atheists.
(November 9, 2015 at 8:47 pm)[KevinM1 Wrote: Just wanted to say that this post hasn't received enough love.
Thanks very much! Maybe a new line of t-shirts...
Quote:
Wyrd: I don't get it, are you saying some atheists still believe in a real God character?
I think that most people believe in some sort of deity. But that doesn't mean that they take their favorite deity seriously. Even most clergy don't take their deity seriously. People can be brainwashed to follow the conventions but it takes a whole lot more to become a true believer. People are constantly being indoctrinated 24/7/365 by all kinds of religious propaganda. It's just like national political propaganda. You can still believe in it although you know it's a big pile of crap.
When people actually think about it they can see that it's asinine to believe that thousands of assorted gods revealed themselves to primitive people but that not one of them will show itself to modern man. But modern man is still stupid enough to believe that such entities showed themselves to ignorant people thousands of years ago and that the tales that those ignorant people told are 100 percent true.
November 10, 2015 at 4:52 am (This post was last modified: November 10, 2015 at 4:52 am by robvalue.)
Sure...
Yes, most of the world's population are theists. But atheists, by definition, don't believe in it. Unless you're saying some professed atheists aren't actually atheists. I'm sure that's true, just as some professed theists aren't actually theists.
I wouldn't say most professed atheists are theists, that seems a bit of a stretch.
Feel free to send me a private message.
Please visit my website here! It's got lots of information about atheism/theism and support for new atheists.
(November 10, 2015 at 4:52 am)robvalue Wrote: Sure...
Yes, most of the world's population are theists. But atheists, by definition, don't believe in it. Unless you're saying some professed atheists aren't actually atheists. I'm sure that's true, just as some professed theists aren't actually theists.
I wouldn't say most professed atheists are theists, that seems a bit of a stretch.
Yes. It does seem like a stretch. Particularly since the vast majority of us "deconverted" slowly, as the tales started to seem ridiculous and absurd and offensive and . . . completely illogical. I would say that most professed atheists are . . . atheists, who are surrounded by a theistic world, and who were raised within religion, therefore some of the thought processes are still affected. But that does not equate with belief.
"The family that prays together...is brainwashing their children."- Albert Einstein
November 10, 2015 at 11:40 am (This post was last modified: November 10, 2015 at 11:42 am by robvalue.)
I can understand the mindset of someone who just can't help but feel there's some super force in control of things. I don't have a problem with that. I just personally don't feel that need to assume it until it's been demonstrated.
What I find ridiculous is people claiming to have intimate knowledge about it while presenting absolutely no evidence. That's what is really stupid.
Feel free to send me a private message.
Please visit my website here! It's got lots of information about atheism/theism and support for new atheists.
(November 10, 2015 at 11:40 am)robvalue Wrote: I can understand the mindset of someone who just can't help but feel there's some super force in control of things. I don't have a problem with that. I just personally don't feel that need to assume it until it's been demonstrated.
What I find ridiculous is people claiming to have intimate knowledge about it while presenting absolutely no evidence. That's what is really stupid.
Are you saying that it's really stupid to claim that gods don't exist because the person has no acceptable evidence that they don't?
November 15, 2015 at 1:26 pm (This post was last modified: November 15, 2015 at 1:27 pm by robvalue.)
No, I'm saying it's stupid to say you know loads of things about God while not giving any evidence as to how you could possibly know any of it (or even that it exists at all).
Feel free to send me a private message.
Please visit my website here! It's got lots of information about atheism/theism and support for new atheists.
(November 15, 2015 at 1:26 pm)robvalue Wrote: No, I'm saying it's stupid to say you know loads of things about God while not giving any evidence as to how you could possibly know any of it (or even that it exists at all).
It comes down to what we consider to be evidence Rob. I see the existence of life as evidence to support my belief in God. I see his intervention in my life as evidence for his existence. I see the testimonies of others as to how he has worked in their lives as evidence. You have your criteria as to what it would take to make you believe, and these things don't meet that criteria. Okay. I agree that these things are not evidence according to how you define evidence, but you can't go inside others and experience what they experience. It is also true that if you are unwilling to step outside the boundaries of natural sciences, then you won't experience God because God is outside the boundaries of natural science, and that's your prerogative to do so.
(November 15, 2015 at 1:55 pm)Lek Wrote: It comes down to what we consider to be evidence Rob. I see the existence of life as evidence to support my belief in God. I see his intervention in my life as evidence for his existence. I see the testimonies of others as to how he has worked in their lives as evidence.
Have you ever considered the Placebo Effect?
Lek Wrote: It is also true that if you are unwilling to step outside the boundaries of natural sciences, then you won't experience God because God is outside the boundaries of natural science, and that's your prerogative to do so.
The natural sciences are the way we understand our world and our universe. The stuff "beyond" it (the supernatural) either a) does not exist or b) exists but cannot interact or have an effect on the natural world, thus making it useless and inconsequential to believe in. Why is the second statement so? Because if something exists beyond the natural world (supernatural) and it intervenes in the natural world, then that intervention becomes natural, and subject to natural laws. It becomes testable and measurable by science, because science is the tool used to study the natural world. However, because there is no evidence for such interventions, and because most of it can be explained by an individual's brain simply believing it to be true, it's doubtful that god exists and is doing things for you himself. Once again, refer to the Placebo Effect or the Self-Fulfilling Prophecy.
