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RE: French Terror Attacks, scores dead
November 16, 2015 at 5:12 pm
(This post was last modified: November 16, 2015 at 5:16 pm by Edwardo Piet.)
Religious scriptures say different things in them. These differences matter. The abrahamic religions are certainly the most harmful but that doesn't make them all exactly equal.
Sam Harris Wrote:"Religion" is a nearly useless term. It's a term like "sports". Now there are sports like Badminton and sports like Thai Boxing, and they have almost nothing in common apart from breathing. There are sports that are just synonymous with the risk of physical injury or even death … There is, I'm happy to say, a religion of peace in this world, but it's not Islam. The claim that Islam is a religion of peace that we hear ceaselessly reiterated is completely delusional. Now Jainism actually is a religion of peace. The core principle of Jainism is non-violence. Gandhi got his non-violence from the Jains. The crazier you get as a Jain, the less we have to worry about you. Jain extremists are paralysed by their pacifism. Jain extremists can't take their eyes off the ground when they walk lest they step on an ant... Needless to say they are vegetarian. So the problem is not religious extremism, because extremism is not a problem if your core beliefs are truly non-violent. The problem isn't fundamentalism. We often hear this said; these are euphemisms... The only problem with Islamic fundamentalism are the fundamentals of Islam.
Yes it's very rare for anyone to take any fundamentals of any religion so seriously and extreme, but it matters what those fundamentals are. It would be absolutely impossible for Extremist Jainism to be even remotely dangerous. This is not the case for all religions.
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RE: French Terror Attacks, scores dead
November 16, 2015 at 5:18 pm
(This post was last modified: November 16, 2015 at 5:18 pm by Edwardo Piet.)
When people are killed for depicting the prophet Muhammad do you think it is a coincidence that depicting Muhammad goes against Islamic scripture?
From this article: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Charlie_Hebdo_shooting
Wikipedia Wrote:Charlie Hebdo had attracted attention for its controversial depictions of Muhammad. Hatred for Charlie Hebdo 's cartoons, which made jokes about Islamic leaders as well as Muhammad, is considered to be the principal motive for the massacre. Michael Morell, former deputy director of the CIA, suggested that the motive of the attackers was "absolutely clear: trying to shut down a media organisation that lampooned the Prophet Muhammad".
In March 2013, Al-Qaeda's branch in Yemen, commonly known as Al-Qaeda in the Arabian Peninsula (AQAP), released a hit list in an edition of their English-language magazine Inspire. The list included Stéphane Charbonnier and others whom AQAP accused of insulting Islam. On 9 January, AQAP claimed responsibility for the attack in a speech from AQAP's top Shariah cleric Harith bin Ghazi al-Nadhari, citing the motive as "revenge for the honor" of Muhammad
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RE: French Terror Attacks, scores dead
November 16, 2015 at 5:19 pm
(November 16, 2015 at 5:12 pm)Evie Wrote: Religious scriptures say different things in them. These differences matter. The abrahamic religions are certainly the most harmful but that doesn't make them all exactly equal.
Sam Harris Wrote:"Religion" is a nearly useless term. It's a term like "sports". Now there are sports like Badminton and sports like Thai Boxing, and they have almost nothing in common apart from breathing. There are sports that are just synonymous with the risk of physical injury or even death … There is, I'm happy to say, a religion of peace in this world, but it's not Islam. The claim that Islam is a religion of peace that we hear ceaselessly reiterated is completely delusional. Now Jainism actually is a religion of peace. The core principle of Jainism is non-violence. Gandhi got his non-violence from the Jains. The crazier you get as a Jain, the less we have to worry about you. Jain extremists are paralysed by their pacifism. Jain extremists can't take their eyes off the ground when they walk lest they step on an ant... Needless to say they are vegetarian. So the problem is not religious extremism, because extremism is not a problem if your core beliefs are truly non-violent. The problem isn't fundamentalism. We often hear this said; these are euphemisms... The only problem with Islamic fundamentalism are the fundamentals of Islam.
Yes it's very rare for anyone to take any fundamentals of any religion so seriously and extreme, but it matters what those fundamentals are. It would be absolutely impossible for Extremist Jainism to be even remotely dangerous. This is not the case for all religions.
I love Sam but bullshit......... Asia and the Orient have not been violence free in their entire history. It is flat out absurd to claim any religion is always peaceful. You push any group of humans into certain situations they can become violent. Religion does not nor ever will create "forever peace". You can only point to parts of our species history where there is more stability or less stability.
Read Victor Stenger's "The New Atheism", he addresses in later chapters a variety of religions including those of Asia and the Orient.
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RE: French Terror Attacks, scores dead
November 16, 2015 at 5:20 pm
(This post was last modified: November 16, 2015 at 5:26 pm by Edwardo Piet.)
Bullshit? If a Jain is ever violent they can't possibly be doing it for Jainist reasons. Not the case with some other religions.
If you think otherwise you may as well claim when atheists are violent they do it for atheistic reasons.
Why wouldn't you claim that? Oh, because atheism has got absolutely nothing to do with violence. But neither has Jainism. Something being a religion doesn't automatically give it a potential for violence. It is because some religions have violence within their texts.
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RE: French Terror Attacks, scores dead
November 16, 2015 at 5:25 pm
(November 16, 2015 at 5:19 pm)Brian37 Wrote: I love Sam but bullshit......... Asia and the Orient have not been violence free in their entire history. Thanks for the strawman. I never said they have, I said Jainism is not a violent religion.
That's like saying Atheism has the potential to cause violence simply because there have been people in power who were atheists and happen to be violent.
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RE: French Terror Attacks, scores dead
November 16, 2015 at 5:25 pm
(This post was last modified: November 16, 2015 at 5:37 pm by Brian37.)
Oh and the attitude of non-violence Malala has pointed to, and Martin Luther King pointed to. Hitchens basically said "Name me one good thing said, or good deed done, that a believer(of any religion) that a religious person could do that an atheist could not do."
Victor Stenger makes the case in "The New Atheism" that every religion has some version of "do good and be good" motif. But, and I agree, he is making the case that proves that our species behavior is not coming from our books or religious clubs, but our behaviors are in our evolution.
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RE: French Terror Attacks, scores dead
November 16, 2015 at 5:28 pm
(This post was last modified: November 16, 2015 at 5:31 pm by Edwardo Piet.)
It's irrelevant that an atheist could do it. It's whether they would do and whether it would also be for atheistic reasons. It wouldn't and couldn't be for atheistic reasons but unlike atheism religiosity is a motivator. If you seriously wish to dispute that then I'm done with this debate.
Are you seriously trying to tell me that suicide bombings are not remotely motivated by Islam and if ISIS were all atheists the result would be exactly the same?
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RE: French Terror Attacks, scores dead
November 16, 2015 at 5:28 pm
(November 16, 2015 at 5:20 pm)Evie Wrote: Bullshit? If a Jain is ever violent they can't possibly be doing it for Jainist reasons. Not the case with some other religions.
If you think otherwise you may as well claim when atheists are violent they do it for atheistic reasons.
Why wouldn't you claim that? Oh, because atheism has got absolutely nothing to do with violence. But neither has Jainism. Something being a religion doesn't automatically give it a potential for violence. It is because most religions have violence within their texts.
Even so, most people don't have time to read all the texts and comprehend/memorize everything. I doubt most Christians read the bible frequently, specially in Europe. Some may even only go to church once or twice a year. I also doubt all Muslims read the Quran, they probably read it more than Christians read the bible, but I doubt most Muslims have memorized all the hadiths. You don't necessarily need to read the books to be X and you can do something in the name of X and say it was because of X - That doesn't say much about the situation. If someone becomes very devout, that is an entirely different matter.
I think in the case of Jainism you can't justify actual violence, but it can have problematic things like the batshit crazy things they believe about Nirvana and so on.
Whoever fights monsters should see to it that in the process he does not become a monster. And if you gaze long enough into an abyss, the abyss will gaze back into you
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RE: French Terror Attacks, scores dead
November 16, 2015 at 5:36 pm
(November 16, 2015 at 5:28 pm)Evie Wrote: It's irrelevant that an atheist could do it. It's whether they would do and whether it would also be for atheistic reasons. It wouldn't and couldn't be for atheistic reasons but unlike atheism religiosity is a motivator. If you seriously wish to dispute that then I'm done with this debate.
Are you seriously trying to tell me that suicide bombings are not remotely motivated by Islam and if ISIS were all atheists the result would be exactly the same?
So if it can be done for atheistic reason you don't need the club. I warn atheists too, not to go around claiming "when we get to be the majority, we will treat you better. When Stenger says we are doing it, he means atheists as well. "Atheist" is only "off" on god claims. Not even that word will determine if an individual will act in kindness or violence.
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RE: French Terror Attacks, scores dead
November 16, 2015 at 5:36 pm
What the texts actually say actually matter you know.
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