Sad thought about Jesus.

[orangebox21]

I was looking at a few other religions with my wife the last few days, and found out that almost every Eastern religion seems to work around karma and reincarnation. There seems to always be this common thread of a reward for behaviour in this life, which you get in the next. I wonder if there are any religions which advise you to be good just to be good and not because the nature of your reward hinges upon it.

Christianity. Did you not read or not understand post #24?

[robvalue]

I did not read it, no. Every Christian I've ever heard of believes in heaven and/or hell which is in some way dependent on their actions. If you don't, you're the first.

[Crossless2.0]

I did not read it, no. Every Christian I've ever heard of believes in heaven and/or hell which is in some way dependent on their actions. If you don't, you're the first.

Paulism (which I now think Christianity should be called) is based on the rejection of reward/punishment for one's actions. In Paul's scheme of things, we are all corrupted by sin; we couldn't not sin no matter how hard we tried. It's all about unearned grace.

As much as Drich drones on about this shit, I'm surprised at you.

[Wyrd of Gawd]

Yeah, some of his ideas are nice. Some of them are stupid and immoral. We only ever get the nice ones quoted, and often out of context.

That is why I recommend Victor Stenger's book "The New Atheism", not for those who accept it or have already read it, but for both atheists and believers.

Common arguments from empathetic liberal believers I have seen in a couple of forums in an attempt to explain all the different religions.

1. "Religion is universal, most people believe..........."

2. "That is simply god speaking in different languages"

Even what people claim to be the "atheistic" religions of Asia are still religions. They are also attempts to explain our species behaviors.

Stenger's book explains all the common ideas and motifs religions claim that explain good and moral. He rightfully challenges the reader to consider that if we are all capable of good and empathy, then we need to consider that our good acts are not coming from a book, but humans falsely take the evolutionary good side of our species and create gap answers in the form of holy books and religion.

Yes you can find stories of kindness and ideas of caring for others in all the word's religions. Unfortunately while those things do foster order because most humans don't have a global view or natural understanding, those acts of kindness and motifs of compassion for others gets distorted to unrealistic fantastic explanations like we find Luke Sky Walker good and Yoda good and find Darth Vader bad, while another group will find Captain Kirk good and Khan bad. Bot camps have their heros and villains, but in religion, it goes beyond mere taste and these claims of antiquity get political and for whatever good people can point to in any religion, it does not resolve our divisions.

I really do love liberals being one myself and liberal theists as well. They reflect the good side of evolution. However, where my well intended liberal friends fail, is that they hide behind those arguments above. Religion is only universal in the context that it is a natural flaw in our species perceptions. Just like it was understandable that the Egyptians falsely gap filled which resulted to them truly believing that Ra was the head god who controlled the sun. Religion is only natural like a placebo or sugar pill. But it also unfortunately sets up the in group vs out group that divides humans and also allows us too come to bad conclusions.

Be kind to your neighbor, feed the poor you can find those motifs in Jewish, and Christian and Islam and Hinduism and Buddhism ect ect ect, they just have different words and different icons in their holy writings all claiming too be the gatekeepers of what constitutes wisdom and good. When you see a domestic house cat on youtube defend a kid from a dog attacking the kid and chase it away, it becomes quite obvious where empathy comes from, evolution.

Religions and governments go hand in glove.  Religions push total belief and complete obedience without exception.  That gives governments legitimacy when the ruler tells his band of idiots to run over the hill and kill the people in the next town and destroy their stuff.  That's the prime directive in the First Commandment in Exodus 34:12-13.  How can you disobey and show mercy when your favorite deity tells you to kill the  scum?  That's how governments get "good" people to do very bad things.

The Repubs claim to be "good" religious people but they never display any of the kindness and mercy associated with being "good".  They are spiteful, mean, and callous toward everyone who isn't in their small clique. If there's a hell they need to be permanent inmates in it.  

In the Star Wars films Luke Skywalker and the Jedi are really religious terrorists who are intent on destroying  freedom and stability in order to impose religious control over the galaxy.  The "evil" emperor was actually the champion of the secular state and wanted to have a political system based on merit instead of religion.  The Jedi are the Taliban/ISIS terrorists in that galaxy.

[God of Mr. Hanky]

That is why I recommend Victor Stenger's book "The New Atheism", not for those who accept it or have already read it, but for both atheists and believers.

Common arguments from empathetic liberal believers I have seen in a couple of forums in an attempt to explain all the different religions.

1. "Religion is universal, most people believe..........."

2. "That is simply god speaking in different languages"

Even what people claim to be the "atheistic" religions of Asia are still religions. They are also attempts to explain our species behaviors.

Stenger's book explains all the common ideas and motifs religions claim that explain good and moral. He rightfully challenges the reader to consider that if we are all capable of good and empathy, then we need to consider that our good acts are not coming from a book, but humans falsely take the evolutionary good side of our species and create gap answers in the form of holy books and religion.

Yes you can find stories of kindness and ideas of caring for others in all the word's religions. Unfortunately while those things do foster order because most humans don't have a global view or natural understanding, those acts of kindness and motifs of compassion for others gets distorted to unrealistic fantastic explanations like we find Luke Sky Walker good and Yoda good and find Darth Vader bad, while another group will find Captain Kirk good and Khan bad. Bot camps have their heros and villains, but in religion, it goes beyond mere taste and these claims of antiquity get political and for whatever good people can point to in any religion, it does not resolve our divisions.

I really do love liberals being one myself and liberal theists as well. They reflect the good side of evolution. However, where my well intended liberal friends fail, is that they hide behind those arguments above. Religion is only universal in the context that it is a natural flaw in our species perceptions. Just like it was understandable that the Egyptians falsely gap filled which resulted to them truly believing that Ra was the head god who controlled the sun. Religion is only natural like a placebo or sugar pill. But it also unfortunately sets up the in group vs out group that divides humans and also allows us too come to bad conclusions.

Be kind to your neighbor, feed the poor you can find those motifs in Jewish, and Christian and Islam and Hinduism and Buddhism ect ect ect, they just have different words and different icons in their holy writings all claiming too be the gatekeepers of what constitutes wisdom and good. When you see a domestic house cat on youtube defend a kid from a dog attacking the kid and chase it away, it becomes quite obvious where empathy comes from, evolution.

Religions and governments go hand in glove.  Religions push total belief and complete obedience without exception.  That gives governments legitimacy when the ruler tells his band of idiots to run over the hill and kill the people in the next town and destroy their stuff.  That's the prime directive in the First Commandment in Exodus 34:12-13.  How can you disobey and show mercy when your favorite deity tells you to kill the  scum?  That's how governments get "good" people to do very bad things.

The Repubs claim to be "good" religious people but they never display any of the kindness and mercy associated with being "good".  They are spiteful, mean, and callous toward everyone who isn't in their small clique. If there's a hell they need to be permanent inmates in it.  

In the Star Wars films Luke Skywalker and the Jedi are really religious terrorists who are intent on destroying  freedom and stability in order to impose religious control over the galaxy.  The "evil" emperor was actually the champion of the secular state and wanted to have a political system based on merit instead of religion.  The Jedi are the Taliban/ISIS terrorists in that galaxy.

Uh, did you actually see those movies? I don't think Darth Vader and Sen. Palpatine (aka The Emperor) were actually secularists. That much observed, the SW franchise is horribly wooful, and a fine example of how easily woo can be sold to young minds. I was just a young child when I went to see the original flick in 1977, and it completely changed my perspective on religious ideas and life in general. Ok, it's not like I actually believed one could do actual magic just by applying their minds to it, and then it helped me consider for the first time the mass narcissism of Christians who insist that the earth is oh-so-very special in the universe. However, in principle The Force (as George Lucus has smugly confessed) is Lucas's own religion, Zen Daoism. Had that movie been released for the first time today, I don't think I would have been able to stick around through the end of it, despite the charisma of the original cast, but because I was there from the onset, I have not been able to miss one single clip, however terrible the last four movies have been prior to the current episode have been. But I'll probably wait for the video release on this current one.

[Wyrd of Gawd]

---

Religions and governments go hand in glove.  Religions push total belief and complete obedience without exception.  That gives governments legitimacy when the ruler tells his band of idiots to run over the hill and kill the people in the next town and destroy their stuff.  That's the prime directive in the First Commandment in Exodus 34:12-13.  How can you disobey and show mercy when your favorite deity tells you to kill the  scum?  That's how governments get "good" people to do very bad things.

The Repubs claim to be "good" religious people but they never display any of the kindness and mercy associated with being "good".  They are spiteful, mean, and callous toward everyone who isn't in their small clique. If there's a hell they need to be permanent inmates in it.  

In the Star Wars films Luke Skywalker and the Jedi are really religious terrorists who are intent on destroying  freedom and stability in order to impose religious control over the galaxy.  The "evil" emperor was actually the champion of the secular state and wanted to have a political system based on merit instead of religion.  The Jedi are the Taliban/ISIS terrorists in that galaxy.

---

Uh, did you actually see those movies? I don't think Darth Vader and Sen. Palpatine (aka The Emperor) were actually secularists. That much observed, the SW franchise is horribly wooful, and a fine example of how easily woo can be sold to young minds. I was just a young child when I went to see the original flick in 1977, and it completely changed my perspective on religious ideas and life in general. Ok, it's not like I actually believed one could do actual magic just by applying their minds to it, and then it helped me consider for the first time the mass narcissism of Christians who insist that the earth is oh-so-very special in the universe. However, in principle The Force (as George Lucus has smugly confessed) is Lucas's own religion, Zen Daoism. Had that movie been released for the first time today, I don't think I would have been able to stick around through the end of it, despite the charisma of the original cast, but because I was there from the onset, I have not been able to miss one single clip, however terrible the last four movies have been prior to the current episode have been. But I'll probably wait for the video release on this current one.

The Star Wars universe is worse than the biblical one.  For one thing when does a republic have a monarchy?  The Queen and Princess should have been part of the empire with the emperor.  The Jedi are a bunch of religious nuts on a par with the Taliban and ISIS.  They create war and havoc wherever they go.  The current story has a Bergdahl-like character as a hero.  The audience has been cheering for the terrorists for years instead of supporting the responsible government who is trying to maintain law and order in the galaxy.  I hope the final story exposes the Jedi for the true terrorists that they are.

The story is similar to the Revelation fairy tale when the Jesus character returns to torture everyone and o kill off all life.  Stupid people help him instead of fighting him.  They are so easily fooled.

[God of Mr. Hanky]

[hide]

The Star Wars universe is worse than the biblical one.  For one thing when does a republic have a monarchy?  The Queen and Princess should have been part of the empire with the emperor.  The Jedi are a bunch of religious nuts on a par with the Taliban and ISIS.  They create war and havoc wherever they go.  The current story has a Bergdahl-like character as a hero.  The audience has been cheering for the terrorists for years instead of supporting the responsible government who is trying to maintain law and order in the galaxy.  I hope the final story exposes the Jedi for the true terrorists that they are.

The story is similar to the Revelation fairy tale when the Jesus character returns to torture everyone and o kill off all life.  Stupid people help him instead of fighting him.  They are so easily fooled.

LOL!

[Cyberman]

Looked at objectively, the Jedi are more evil - certainly more sinister - than we thought:

http://www.cracked.com/article_22320_6-w...paths.html

[Wyrd of Gawd]

Looked at objectively, the Jedi are more evil - certainly more sinister - than we thought:

http://www.cracked.com/article_22320_6-w...paths.html

The Star Wars movies use the same technique that the Bible uses to convince people that "evil" people are the good guys.  They make the "good" guys look evil by not telling their story.  When they do give the "good" guys a scene they show them in the worse light possible.  

For instance, why do we get the idea that Satan is the bad guy?  He get's blame for telling Adam & Eve that they don't have to be ignorant stupid creatures like God wanted them to be.  His next scene is with Job, whom the God character wanted to test to see if he would remain loyal.  So the God character told Satan to screw over Job but no to kill him.  Then later on Jesus has a minor run-in with Satan.

In the case of the Star Wars characters we are fooled because the evil guys seem to be fighting against the tyrants when in actuality they are the real tyrants.  It's American propaganda at its best.  

Who kills everyone and destroys the planet?  It's God/Jesus.  So why do we think he's the good guy?

[Iroscato]

Except The Empire was literally and enthusiastically destroying planets simply to create fear to keep the local systems in line. Fear of this battlestation.