Can atheists convert theists?

[Godhead]

Why do some atheists (judging from a couple of the responses) feel the need to say that they aren't interested in converting theists, and then show signs of frustration when theists don't agree with them, in the form of resorting to ridicule? That's not very consistent. You should be honest and just say that you'd really like to convert theists, and that it frustrates you when you don't manage it. People don't just ridicule others merely for fun, they do so for a specific reasons, and in this case I believe it is out of frustration. And that of course begs the question, what do you feel you lose when others don't agree with you?

[Darwinian]

Why do some atheists (judging from a couple of the responses) feel the need to say that they aren't interested in converting theists, and then show signs of frustration when theists don't agree with them, in the form of resorting to ridicule? That's not very consistent. You should be honest and just say that you'd really like to convert theists, and that it frustrates you when you don't manage it. People don't just ridicule others merely for fun, they do so for a specific reasons, and in this case I believe it is out of frustration. And that of course begs the question, what do you feel you lose when others don't agree with you?

Personally, I have no particular desire to convert theists. If someone wants to believe in X, Y or Z then that is entirely their prerogative.

However, the frustration comes in when people use their ideology as an excuse not to think and rely on it to provide many of the answers to the questions that the Cosmos poses, despite of evidence to the contrary and sometime in spite it.

My main frustration is with creationists who, despite being proved utterly wrong on every count still stick to the child like stories of Genesis for no other reason it seems than they want to believe it even though it makes no sense.

Even this I could tolerate if they simply kept their theories to themselves but when they start lobbying governments and pestering schools to get this nonsense taught in science classes then something really has to be done.

[strattosphere]

Why do some atheists (judging from a couple of the responses) feel the need to say that they aren't interested in converting theists, and then show signs of frustration when theists don't agree with them, in the form of resorting to ridicule? That's not very consistent. You should be honest and just say that you'd really like to convert theists, and that it frustrates you when you don't manage it. People don't just ridicule others merely for fun, they do so for a specific reasons, and in this case I believe it is out of frustration. And that of course begs the question, what do you feel you lose when others don't agree with you?

Speaking as a hard atheist I think it is vitally important in getting believers to shed their primitive superstitions. Everyone on this planet needs to accept the truth that there are no supernatural beings and that this life and this beautiful universe is all there is, so that we don't all die at the hands of a religious nutter with his finger on the trigger of World War 3.

The frustration comes because we atheists find it hard to believe the sheer stupidity of the fallacial reasoning displayed by the religious. While we are using our own senses and science based evidence to state the reality of the non-existence of any fantasy creatures, gods, fairies etc, the religious look to self delusion and writings about bronze-age, paedophilic, slave condoning con-artists and nut jobs (written by more nutters and con artists who didn't actually know the subjects of their insane ramblings) to prop up their insane obsessions with sex, death and what the neighbours think.

No offense!

[Eilonnwy]

If I wanted to convert a theist I would first carefully explain what atheism is, so they understand that the uselessness of the deistic and "agnostic" position and what it is to be an agnostic atheist. Understanding these terms can go a long way, because some people have an aversion to atheism because they view it as a hard lined stance that there is no god.

Once that is squared away, I would probably ask what they believe and why, examine what they consider good evidence, offer arguments of my own to refute that evidence and maybe any additional ones I felt were convincing. Among those would be the lack of historical evidence for Jesus (if they were Christian), various problems with the Bible, especially the Gospels, the problem of evil. I'd also explain logical fallacies and the scientific method, why Pascal's wager fails utterly, etc..

The thing is, if this person had a personal experience that convinces them their is a God, it's nearly impossible to refute that experience, except maybe to offer other possible reasons and explain Occam's Razor.

I don't personally go around trying to convert people, though. I don't want theism imposed on me constantly, so why would I hypocritically do the same? I've heard various different conversion stories, and I know some result from theists trying to go to online communities and discuss with atheists, and after constant ridicule and tearing down of their arguments, they began to change their views. Though such conversion does not result from one person destroying an argument, but multiple people and multiple times.

Ultimately, I discuss atheism because I like to challenge what I believe and what I don't believe. I like to constantly put them to the test, it actually makes my various beliefs and non-beliefs stronger, and I have managed, over time, to discard some fallacious beliefs. I like to learn how to argue and in general learn from the process. But also, I like to think that maybe something I said will make a theist or someone on the fence stop and think, and maybe look at something a little different. That's the best I can hope for, and I'm happy with that. I've always said I would never force atheism on anyone, I would love for the world to be atheistic, but only because of free thought and intellectualism.

[Godhead]

Strattosphere -

No offense taken, but let's be honest here. Let us not equate religion, let alone theism in general, with ww3 and the like. You know as well as I do that the kind of people who use religion to justify that kind of stuff are a tiny minority compared to the vast proportion of religious people who are as against that as you and I. So for the sake of clarity let's make a distinction between a simple, everyday belief in god, and the crazy stuff done in its name by a few. Some of you have theist parents no doubt, so you can see that this distinction exists. With that in mind, do you still think it's important to get believers to shed their beliefs on the basis of "just in case they blow something up"? What about other people? People do bad things in the name of all kinds of stuff, but we can't go around shedding them of whatever it may be that could, maybe, possibly, form part of a reason to blow something up. As for the frustration, you have another choice, which is to not be frustrated, or, to just live with your frustration rather than trying to shed others of what frustrates you. I'm perfectly comfortable with the fact that there are plenty of people who don't share my views, why is it that so many atheists (based on what I've read, not just here) feel this overwhelming desire to remove what frustrates them, rather than live with it? I'm a theist but I'm not religious, and what I've observed from my "middle" position is religious people and atheists thinking along the exact same lines, which is to try so hard to get others to agree with them. If you look at that purely on a psychological level, it seems like deep insecurity.

Eilonnwy -

You're saying that you don't try to convert people, but then you say that you try to put people to the test, you talk about getting people to discard their beliefs, and you like to think that something you say will make a theist look at things differently, and that that's something you hope for, and that you'd love the world to be atheist.

[Paul the Human]

Personally, I am very interested in why people believe that god(s) exist and enjoy asking questions about what they believe. I'm not necessarily out to deconvert anyone, but if what they say and/or believe doesn't make any sense, I do not hesitate to attempt to explain that to them. I call it as I see it... and so far... no one has ever explained a religious belief to me that did not sound like make-believe. I am astounded that anyone could continue to believe that god(s) exist after having actually given it some honest thought.

The ridicule comes in (for me) when the theist in question repeatedly refuses to acknowledge refutations or simply counters with mumbo-jumbo answers that only a believer would actually believe. Circular logic, magical thinking, intellectual dishonesty, childish wonder, and belief because some ancient book says so... all deserve ridicule in my opinion. But not in real life, so much. I leave them alone and ask the same in return.

This is not real life. This is an atheist forum community that welcomes Kool-Aid drinkers of every flavor. If a theist comes here and can't talk rationally... they are simply begging for ridicule. Why else are they here?

(EDIT: As to the original question, "Can atheists convert theists?" - I think the answer is yes, but only if the theist is willing to explore his/her beliefs critically and rationally. Do we want to convert them? That depends on who you ask.)

[Eilonnwy]

Eilonnwy -

You're saying that you don't try to convert people, but then you say that you try to put people to the test, you talk about getting people to discard their beliefs, and you like to think that something you say will make a theist look at things differently, and that that's something you hope for, and that you'd love the world to be atheist.

I only argue with people who are willing to. I.e. theists that come here. -_^

Also you're taking some words a little out of context. I don't "test" people, I enter arguments and discussions with willing participants. And, while I would love for everyone to be an atheist, I wish it through very specific means. Not force, but their own free thought.

What was your point of horribly summarizing my post? Did you have a question?

[fr0d0]

Whilst I think Christianity would be good for everyone, for their own sake, I'm happy that people have different beliefs/ understandings.

[Godhead]

Eilonnwy -

No question, it just seemed that there was a contradiction between you saying that you don't try to convert people, and the other things you said. Don't get me wrong, I don't mind atheists attempting to convert me (and they should be honest about it), but it's just that if one is to take it seriously, one needs to have a proper strategy. Ridiculing someone doesn't help, because as soon as someone feels that the other person is merely out to ridicule, the doors close. So you can't do it that way. Also, you have to take into consideration how the other person thinks, and then use their own reasoning, if you can, to point out contradictions, but don't get angry when the person doesn't see any contradictions. You have to be patient, these things don't happen instantly. The moment you display impatience or ridicule, the other person no longer has a reason to engage in any dialogue, and let's not forget, it is a dialogue. One also needs to really listen to what the other person says, and not try to bulldoze over what they say merely in order to express your view. Generally speaking, not many people are good at converting anyone who is not ready to be converted. It's very tricky because we all have a lot of assumptions about life, which are hard to discard, regardless of what they are and why we have them.

[Eilonnwy]

Eilonnwy -

No question, it just seemed that there was a contradiction between you saying that you don't try to convert people, and the other things you said.

No, there was no contradiction. I stated I don't actively try to convert people, but if my arguments with theists, that I do largely for myself, help someone figure some things out, then that makes me happy. The point is that my mission in any religious discussion I enter is not focused on conversion.

Don't get me wrong, I don't mind atheists attempting to convert me (and they should be honest about it), but it's just that if one is to take it seriously, one needs to have a proper strategy. Ridiculing someone doesn't help, because as soon as someone feels that the other person is merely out to ridicule, the doors close. So you can't do it that way. Also, you have to take into consideration how the other person thinks, and then use their own reasoning, if you can, to point out contradictions, but don't get angry when the person doesn't see any contradictions. You have to be patient, these things don't happen instantly. The moment you display impatience or ridicule, the other person no longer has a reason to engage in any dialogue, and let's not forget, it is a dialogue. One also needs to really listen to what the other person says, and not try to bulldoze over what they say merely in order to express your view. Generally speaking, not many people are good at converting anyone who is not ready to be converted. It's very tricky because we all have a lot of assumptions about life, which are hard to discard, regardless of what they are and why we have them.

Who said anything about ridiculing a person? I certainly didn't. I said ridiculing their arguments, which is very different. Sometimes people need to be told how absurd their argument is over and over again before they get the hint.

The rest of what you said is just blah blah blah. As I said, I'm not out to convert people, if I was, I'd go crazy. If people say stupid shit, they're gonna get called on it. Fact of life.