Can atheists convert theists?

[fr0d0]

Everything = X and nothing = X are not the same thing. Given God = creator (or in Godheads theology : self existent) then god has to be in everything. To an extent, we can know what everything is in this reality. So how can you say we don't know what X is???

[Godhead]

EvF -

I take it you don't consider it meaningful because both "everything" and "nothing" don't specify any particular thing. But the concept of both we are familiar with, we know what they both mean. Nothing means no nothing at all whatsoever, and everything means all things. Besides if you're ok with the concept of 'all is consciousness", why aren't you ok with the concep of "everything is god"? They're both : everything = X.

[Edwardo Piet]

Because you are defining God as everything.... that is your definition of God.

If you say "X exists"

And I ask "What is X?"

And you say "everything" it is just labelling everything as everything and calling that "X" (in this case God). It adds no more meaning.

The consciousness part adds meaning because consciousness already has its own definition. "God" on the otherhand you are defining as "everything". So when you define God as everything you are merely saying "everything is everything" and calling that "God." It's meaningless.

EvF

[fr0d0]

If you said : "The Universe = everything, and therefore God ALSO = everything" I think you might have a point EvF... that we already have a word for the Universe. But then this isn't what Godhead is saying he entirely describes god as is it?

[Godhead]

EvF -

The meaning is in what everything / god is/means. God is everything and everything is god. God/everything is consciousness. What I'm saying is that god is all consciousness, and everything is god, and so everything is all consciousness, or more accurately, an aspect of all consciousness/god.

Edit :

In other words, god and everthing and all cnsciousnss are one and the same.

[Knight]

In other words, god and everthing and all cnsciousnss are one and the same.

Sounds like someone has been reading "Siddhartha." Om.

Anyway, that's an interesting view, but how does one come to that conclusion? Unless there is some reason and evidence behind it, applying a label, as EvF keeps saying, is meaningless. There must be some way to verify what you are saying for it to have meaning.

[Godhead]

Knight -

I'm convinced that it's how I think it is because I've spent a lot of time thinking about it, and it makes sense to me, so I go with it. My belief and also the feeling that everything is god causes me to see evidence of god's existence by the fact that things exist. You could say that my premise contains the conclusion. It would also be fair to say that I'm stuck i that and I don't mind either being stuck in that or the fact that one could say that I am. My belief has created a cycle in which I see the evidence and nothing can change that, unless I one day elt differently. However, even if that happened, the "logic" (or whatever you want to call it) of my belief would remain uncontradicted (is that a word? never mind) and I'd probably g back to my belief. I've never in my life come across anything which contradicts my belief. No argument at all, ever. However I don't mind being challenged (that means finding myself questning my beliefs) and I'm open to that.

[Knight]

If you believe everything is God, then the only way to convince you that there is no God would be to prove that nothing exists...or that everything we know in actuality does not exist, including ourselves. I personally find that an absurd premise, certainly impossible to challenge on those grounds. What you seek is impossible.

Quite frankly, I have no issue with you believing whatever you wish, or anyone for that matter. As long as you don't start calling us ignorant for not accepting your conclusions on blind faith, or threatening us with eternal torment (and as if this isn't enough, lobbying to get others' rights taken away based on the beliefs), then you're fine in my view. If you are content believing something knowing very well you are doing so on faith alone, I don't see the point.

I'm not sure if you read my post on page 9 or not...but I hope you do. I wrote about my stance when it comes to believing in a God, and that theists have it backwards in terms of applying attributes to their God (or gods, Goddesses, etc). This is the closest argument I can think of that may even attempt to challenge your position.

[Godhead]

Knight -

No worries. In my belief system (although you must understand that since I joined this forum I've been tempted to say that "I know" (which I'd certainly say in a casual face to face conversation), but hey, that's faith for you), there's no heaven or hell, I love everything, there's no need to even convert as I don't even care what others believe or disbelieve (although it's always interesting to discuss it), and everyone has the right to teach anything, no matter what it is or who agrees or disagrees. Do I think you're ignorant? Only in the nicest sense, merely in that I think I'm right and I think you're wrong and that you don't consider hings that I consider but that's life and it's fine, I do the same (and let's be honest, many people here think I'm ignorant. And I am). For not accepting my conclusions you're certainly not ignorant / stupid. I admire atheists, but dissapointingly, and from experience, I find a lot of atheists difficult to engage with peacefully (they get so agitated), which was a huge shock the first time I experienced it. I was expecting to be respected more, even if just for thinking for myself and not blindly following a religion. If nothing else, we have that much in common and I believe on building on positives. I admit that my views are faith based, but I also think that that's valid. I'll read your post on page 9 at some point.

[Knight]

Just to clarify one point, I don't classify myself as "atheist" but "theological noncognitivist." Classifying myself as an atheist implies too much knowledge of the God in question for my liking, just as a personal preference. When you read the post you will see that my view takes a step back and questions the entire process of giving a God attributes.

You seem like a genuinely good person, and I look forward to future discussions with you.