The Immorality of God - Slavery in the Old Testament

[Mudhammam]

In some instances, the Hebrews represented incremental moral improvements; in others, they are slightly worse. But anyone who compares the laws of the Hittites with that of the Hebrews can clearly observe the latter to be far more barbaric.

The Wikipedia entry for Child Sacrifice mentions this regarding the Canaanites:

"According to Diodorus Siculus, "There was in their city a bronze image of Cronus extending its hands, palms up and sloping toward the ground, so that each of the children when placed thereon rolled down and fell into a sort of gaping pit filled with fire."(Bib. Hist. 20.14.6)

Sites within Carthage and other Phoenician centers revealed the remains of infants and children in large numbers; some historians[citation needed] interpret this as evidence for frequent and prominent child sacrifice to the god Baal-hamon."


So, I dunno, Nestor. What, specifically, from your studies has given you reason to believe that the Hebrews were worse than this?

Are you conveniently forgetting Yahweh's supposed confession in Ezekiel 20:25-26?

[robvalue]

I don't know why some people assume I haven't read the bible.

Well, athrok, I formally give up. I tried to help you. I assume your goal was to try and change the minds of someone here, about something. You're never going to succeed while you just project your assumptions onto people rather than asking them what they actually believe, and why.

[Crossless2.0]

Speaking of comprehension, I suppose it wasn't lost on you that I implicitly invoked the whole of the Mosaic law in addition to the ten commandments -- you know, the bit you quoted that mentioned ritual commandments? Did you really think I had the stone tablets in mind there?

But don't let your misguided sense of adequacy get in the way of understanding the plain meaning of another person's post.

And still not buying it.

Hey, you're right. I did mis-read your post. For this, I apologize.

BFF?

Lol. We're not there yet, but you're welcome to come to the deer butchering tonight.

[athrock]

God had to work with what He had and progress from there.

If god is as omnipotent, omnipresent and as all knowing as Christians believe, then one could very easily argue that such a god would have no need for slavery. He could just have the necessary things people of that time needed, just appear ( you know, like that mana from heaven).

He did at one point. Adam and Eve had all they needed until they chose to disobey. (Even taken figuratively, the point still stands. Prior to man's fall, life was good.)

There would be no need for people to do work for others because god could, with all his powers, just provide everything for everyone.

He sure could. Like feeding the 5,000 with a couple of loaves and fish. That wouldn't leave much opportunity for growth in holiness though, would it? Kinda hard to give alms when everyone's got them.

Another point - If he is supposed to be an all loving God, then why would he force bondage and slavery on those he supposedly loved?  That doesn't sound like a very loving god to me.

Those were human decisions. However, God allowed the Israelites to be carried into captivity by the Babylonians, for example, because of their unfaithfulness.

[The Grand Nudger]

26 pages of "it weren't so bad" and "it was a step up".  

Yes, it was, and no....it wasn't.

[Mudhammam]

"Prior to man's fall, life was good."

This guy actually believes in the Golden Age of ancient mythology...

[robvalue]

So here's a quicky.

Could God achieve everything he wanted to in his plan, without slavery being made possible?

Same question for rape, violence, and so on.

If he could, then he's chosen to include these things because he wanted them there, and not for any other reason.

If he couldn't, then he has suspicious arbitrary context-sensitive restrictions depending on the argument at hand.

If good is meant to come out of bad somehow, then he could just make the exact same amount of good, with all the knowledge and strength that may be, without letting anyone enslave anyone ever.

Imagine an amazing wonderland where you can do anything you want, and have fun all day. Anything you can imagine, you can do. You just can't hurt anyone else. This would actually be a hell of a lot more free will than we currently have. For example, I'd be off roller skating through space eating endless pizzas and looking for clues in an amazing new interactive detective game I decided I wanted. Then I'd stop and chat with some friends, and maybe we'd play ultra-cards, a game perfectly designed for our group to fit in maximally with how we could enjoy a card game.

It would never cross our minds to hurt each other, ever. And we physically can't do it, even by accident.

Would you go live in that universe, or stay here?

[athrock]

The Wikipedia entry for Child Sacrifice mentions this regarding the Canaanites:

"According to Diodorus Siculus, "There was in their city a bronze image of Cronus extending its hands, palms up and sloping toward the ground, so that each of the children when placed thereon rolled down and fell into a sort of gaping pit filled with fire."(Bib. Hist. 20.14.6)

Sites within Carthage and other Phoenician centers revealed the remains of infants and children in large numbers; some historians[citation needed] interpret this as evidence for frequent and prominent child sacrifice to the god Baal-hamon."


So, I dunno, Nestor. What, specifically, from your studies has given you reason to believe that the Hebrews were worse than this?

Are you conveniently forgetting Yahweh's supposed confession in Ezekiel 20:25-26?

Good question, Nestor.

In the context of the entire chapter, God's judgment was that the Israelites had forsaken His decrees and taken up the detestable practices of other nations. So, in this sense, they were doing the same things as the other nations. This seems to support my contention that it took a very, very long time for Israel to come around to God's way of thinking. Perhaps, in a manner of speaking, the Hebrews WERE worse than the other nations in that they had seen the mighty works of God performed on their behalf and yet they still rebelled like ungrateful children.

Is there something more in that chapter that you wish to highlight?

[The Grand Nudger]

I find it amusing that you've managed, in your mind, to come to some relative racial goodness level for the hebrews as a part of their historical narrative on the basis of a fictional tale...in a slavery apologism thread.

10/10

[Mudhammam]

Are you conveniently forgetting Yahweh's supposed confession in Ezekiel 20:25-26?

Good question, Nestor.

In the context of the entire chapter, God's judgment was that the Israelites had forsaken His decrees and taken up the detestable practices of other nations. So, in this sense, they were doing the same things as the other nations. This seems to support my contention that it took a very, very long time for Israel to come around to God's way of thinking. Perhaps, in a manner of speaking, the Hebrews WERE worse than the other nations in that they had seen the mighty works of God performed on their behalf and yet they still rebelled like ungrateful children.

Is there something more in that chapter that you wish to highlight?

No, but since you're the one who brought up the specific issue of child sacrifice as a quasi-defense for the grotesque theology and law of the Old Testament, I figured you'd at least acknowledge Yahweh's direct use and sanctioning of it.