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RE: Formal logic for Dummies?
February 5, 2016 at 11:52 am
That is not how the argument tends to transpire.
Atheists start by stating that the universe has no creator.
Theists then make the gaps of knowledge and special pleading statements that god created the universe.
Then the atheists responds by stating that if the theist believes the universe must have had a creator, then so must god have had a creator.
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RE: Formal logic for Dummies?
February 5, 2016 at 12:14 pm
(This post was last modified: February 5, 2016 at 12:34 pm by The Grand Nudger.)
(February 5, 2016 at 11:32 am)ChadWooters Wrote: (January 29, 2016 at 3:25 pm)robvalue Wrote: "Who created the universe?" for example is a doubly loaded question that begs the question not once but twice. Yet we see it all the time. We point out how flawed it is. We get ignored. The same people repeat it later.
The same applies to the question "Then who created God?" I see it all the time. I show it to be flawed, a category error. I'm ignored. The same people repeat it.
Which is unsurprising, isn't it? If one set of propositions fail on the grounds of their means of inference as in the situation above...it doesn't matter what other propositions you plug in, they will all fail for the same reason. The means of inference is flawed.
In asking this counter-question, people are not expressing a valid question about the workings of the universe, they are discussing the working argument itself...and in that regard simply exposing yet -another- flawed statement that is created, consequentially, by some formulations of the first. People are saying..."well, if you take this to be true..then"....... not "because this is true, therefore". Criticism of that counter-question is only further criticism of the original question....you're argeeing with the arguer who has assumed the oppositions position. It gets repeated because the initial claim gets repeated. Understand?
I've never understood the religious preoccupation with god and cause. Would it really matter if god were caused? Would it be any less god, relative to us and our relationship with it? I don't see why. Zues had a cause, people worshipped him all the same.
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Formal logic for Dummies?
February 5, 2016 at 1:17 pm
(February 5, 2016 at 11:28 am)ChadWooters Wrote: Formal logic really isn't that difficult. People use it everyday without training. Usually the validity of the argument depends on the premises and the definitions of the original terms. Modal logic is a little more tricky. I'm always suspicious of claims based on modal logic.
I guess part of what I am trying to learn is the difference -between-. Formal versus informal, for example, but I think I've got the hang of that now thanks to these kindly offered resources. Where does modal logic fit in comparatively? Or is it a subset of one of the others?
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Formal logic for Dummies?
February 5, 2016 at 1:18 pm
(February 5, 2016 at 11:52 am)Kitan Wrote: That is not how the argument tends to transpire.
Atheists start by stating that the universe has no creator.
Theists then make the gaps of knowledge and special pleading statements that god created the universe.
Then the atheists responds by stating that if the theist believes the universe must have had a creator, then so must god have had a creator.
Yeah, that's definitely more like it. Context can be everything, lol.
Nay_Sayer: “Nothing is impossible if you dream big enough, or in this case, nothing is impossible if you use a barrel of KY Jelly and a miniature horse.”
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RE: Formal logic for Dummies?
February 5, 2016 at 1:19 pm
Modal logic is formal.
I am the Infantry. I am my country’s strength in war, her deterrent in peace. I am the heart of the fight… wherever, whenever. I carry America’s faith and honor against her enemies. I am the Queen of Battle. I am what my country expects me to be, the best trained Soldier in the world. In the race for victory, I am swift, determined, and courageous, armed with a fierce will to win. Never will I fail my country’s trust. Always I fight on…through the foe, to the objective, to triumph overall. If necessary, I will fight to my death. By my steadfast courage, I have won more than 200 years of freedom. I yield not to weakness, to hunger, to cowardice, to fatigue, to superior odds, For I am mentally tough, physically strong, and morally straight. I forsake not, my country, my mission, my comrades, my sacred duty. I am relentless. I am always there, now and forever. I AM THE INFANTRY! FOLLOW ME!
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Formal logic for Dummies?
February 5, 2016 at 10:26 pm
(February 5, 2016 at 1:19 pm)Rhythm Wrote: Modal logic is formal.
Thank you!
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RE: Formal logic for Dummies?
February 5, 2016 at 10:29 pm
Formal logic makes my eyes glaze over. First order logic, second order logic, all of it.
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RE: Formal logic for Dummies?
February 5, 2016 at 10:40 pm
Yeah, it can get pretty fuzzy!
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RE: Formal logic for Dummies?
February 6, 2016 at 4:36 am
(This post was last modified: February 6, 2016 at 4:38 am by robvalue.)
Here's some logicz:
The universe is everything that exists.
So if God exists, he is part of the universe. Therefor God cannot have "created the universe", only added to it. This is why I refer to this environment as "our reality" rather than "the universe". This language also allows for the possibility of other distinct realities.
The only way around this is to say God didn't exist at one point, and created the universe with himself in it. That would be impressive, even for a god, to do something while not existing.
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RE: Formal logic for Dummies?
February 6, 2016 at 5:22 am
"The universe is everything that exists."
Is that what a universe is?
That kills off parallel universes, multiverses, etc (unless they are part of the "universe")
I think we're just playing with words now...
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