Near death experience of Howard Storm

[Excited Penguin]

NDEs are NDEs, not DEs. They indicate nothing except that oxygen-starved brains do weird things.There is no evidence that any of that goes on "outside the brain". There is however, evidence that it doesn't

But our brains do weird things when we sleep, too. And yet when we wake up from a dream, we know it's a dream. Staunch atheists don't turn Christians from having a dream. Another thing is, why would people who are strong atheists be having dream like visions of God and Jesus in their heads when they are unconscious? And furthermore, why would they have dreams of God and Jesus being goodness and love? It seems that first of all, most atheists think that if God and Jesus do exist, they are evil anyway. Or at least uncaring.  

Obviously, something happened to these people that made them change overnight in such a drastic way, from becoming atheists who hate religion to becoming Christians. That's huge, almost supernatural in itself. Can a mere "dream" do that? Could it do that to you? 

Now, I'm not saying I believe all this. I have no dog in this fight. My faith does not rely on strangers' personal experiences, and some parts of this story kind of contradict my own beliefs. All I'm saying is the possibilities may be worth an objective look and some consideration. Because it is very strange indeed.

Cl, there are atheists out there who are atheists for the wrong reasons, so to speak. To conclude that there's no reason to believe any deity exists is something you do rationally, not otherwise. Certainly not because you're mad at religion. God could very well exist and a lot of people would still be mad both at him and at what his followers do in his name.

I contend that this is all these experiences really are. Dreams. A lucid dream can appear to be extremely real, even more vivid than reality. You should look into it. It's a fascinating thing about the human mind. It's like the ultimate virtual reality.

[Catholic_Lady]

But our brains do weird things when we sleep, too. And yet when we wake up from a dream, we know it's a dream. Staunch atheists don't turn Christians from having a dream. Another thing is, why would people who are strong atheists be having dream like visions of God and Jesus in their heads when they are unconscious? And furthermore, why would they have dreams of God and Jesus being goodness and love? It seems that first of all, most atheists think that if God and Jesus do exist, they are evil anyway. Or at least uncaring.  

Obviously, something happened to these people that made them change overnight in such a drastic way, from becoming atheists who hate religion to becoming Christians. That's huge, almost supernatural in itself. Can a mere "dream" do that? Could it do that to you? 

Now, I'm not saying I believe all this. I have no dog in this fight. My faith does not rely on strangers' personal experiences, and some parts of this story kind of contradict my own beliefs. All I'm saying is the possibilities may be worth an objective look and some consideration. Because it is very strange indeed.

Certainly, people dream... and weird things happen in some people's dreams.
This can be a perfectly reasonable way to dream into belief in demons.

Perhaps these NDE people don't start out as they become advertised, after the fact.... Remember House's number one rule: everybody lies.

Perhaps what happens to them when they're in that state is, afterwards, rationalized and, due to being imbued in the society that they are, their brains find that societal religious explanation for the "experience", given that they can't attribute a non-religious significance to it.
You must admit that there are many more people claiming to just see a white light under such circumstances. Perhaps those others are dressing up the white light with the baggage of their surroundings, no?

Perhaps you are right.

It just seems like someone who is a strong atheist would *want* to try their best to attribute non religious significance to their experience. It seems that would be their immediate, go to rationale. At least this is what I've gathered from talking to all of you. This is why I am considering the possibility that what happened to them was indeed something very very real. SO real that not even extremely skeptical, strong atheists were be able to "rationalize" their way out of it once it happened to them.

[Homeless Nutter]

[...]Obviously, something happened to these people that made them change overnight in such a drastic way, from becoming atheists who hate religion to becoming Christians.[...]

Yeah - they received some brain damage, is what obviously happened. Unless - of course - they're lying, as is common practice among believers. Testimonies of those people are pretty much useless, in terms of evidence.

The world is full of crazy people, liars and frauds. I'm sure you can usually spot most of them easily. Except when they wax lyrical about your particular fantasies. Any bullsh*t seems "interesting" and "profound", when it potentially "proves" Jeezles...

I'll bet, that if some dumbass in a youtube video claimed that aliens, who secretly visit Earth are in fact coming here to learn the magical ways of christianity - you'd call it a reasonable "theory"...

[Catholic_Lady]

I do have a serious question for all of you.

Would you WANT this story to be real?

Would it make you happy if it were? Or would you still hate the idea of God and afterlife even after reading this story which paints God and the afterlife in such a positive light?

Would you rather it all be a farce, and that we all just die when we die and there is no loving God?

[Alex K]

CL,

Who knows what this kind of deprivation does to people's minds. It's *not a dream* either, during dreams the brain is in principle fully functional and when we wake up, the usual mechanisms for reality checking do their thing. We evolved to be functional in the real world despite having dreams. In these extreme experiences, the brain does not operate properly. You can't compare the two except to note that dreams show us that our mind is capable of astonishing fabrications.

[Catholic_Lady]

[...]Obviously, something happened to these people that made them change overnight in such a drastic way, from becoming atheists who hate religion to becoming Christians.[...]

Yeah - they received some brain damage, is what obviously happened. Unless - of course - they're lying, as is common practice among believers. Testimonies of those people are pretty much useless, in terms of evidence.

The world is full of crazy people, liars and frauds. I'm sure you can usually spot most of them easily. Except when they wax lyrical about your particular fantasies. Any bullsh*t seems "interesting" and "profound", when it potentially "proves" Jeezles...

I'll bet, that if some dumbass in a youtube video claimed that aliens, who secretly visit Earth are in fact coming here to learn the magical ways of christianity - you'd call it a reasonable "theory"...

Yes, and this is the thing. What you're saying here, and the way you are saying it, is very typical of a lot of atheists. Honestly, if someone like you, who says all these things and thinks all these things, all of a sudden woke up from a near death incident and changed your tune completely, saying you believe in God and Jesus now, and even became a pastor... I would think it was very very strange. It would definitely be enough to at least make me consider the possibilities that your experience was real. 

I imagine the guy who this happened with was a lot like you. He is described as being very anti religion, very unbelieving, and only using the word "God" as a dirty word. It would definitely make me pause if anyone who is anything like you all of a sudden changed completely.

[Catholic_Lady]

CL,

Who knows what this kind of deprivation does to people's minds. It's *not a dream* either, during dreams the brain is in principle fully functional and when we wake up, the usual mechanisms for reality checking do their thing. We evolved to be functional in the real world despite having dreams. In these extreme experiences, the brain does not operate properly. You can't compare the two except to note that dreams show us that our mind is capable of astonishing fabrications.

Right, so if this happened to you (your brain fabricating an incident with God and Jesus during near death), you would wake up and rationalize it, right? You would wake up and at least eventually come to the conclusion that it was just your brain doing weird things. Correct?

[Aoi Magi]

I do have a serious question for all of you.

Would you WANT this story to be real?

Nope, I don't want random strangers to reach near-death conditions. (Well, I could make an exception for my boss!)

Would it make you happy if it were? Or would you still hate the idea of God and afterlife even after reading this story which paints God and the afterlife in such a positive light?

Nope and Yep!
No cause again, if there was a hell I wouldn't feel happy about people being stuck there.
Yep, I'd still hate the idea of eternal afterlife as because it'll be hellish either way.

Would you rather it all be a farce, and that we all just die when we die and there is no loving God?

What exactly is the point of having a loving anything AFTER I am dead? Well I guess, I'd prefer that over the vengeful biblical deity...

[Homeless Nutter]

Yes, and this is the thing. What you're saying here, and the way you are saying it, is very typical of a lot of atheists. Honestly, if someone like you, who says all these things and thinks all these things, all of a sudden woke up from a near death incident and changed your tune completely, saying you believe in God and Jesus now, and even became a pastor... I would think it was very very strange.[...]

Well, let me repeat myself, then. Brain. Damage. Brains are fragile things. Is it possible, that I hit my head one day and become an imbecile, who believes in Santa and pisses himself occasionally? Sure. Does that prove existence of a god, or afterlife? Hell, no.

You look for confirmation of your irrational beliefs in things that are ridiculously easy to explain in much simpler ways. I'm sure you like the narrative of "arrogant" non believer becoming a christian and it's much less depressing than the reality, that someone lost some of their faculties...

[Catholic_Lady]

Yes, and this is the thing. What you're saying here, and the way you are saying it, is very typical of a lot of atheists. Honestly, if someone like you, who says all these things and thinks all these things, all of a sudden woke up from a near death incident and changed your tune completely, saying you believe in God and Jesus now, and even became a pastor... I would think it was very very strange.[...]

Well, let me repeat myself, then. Brain. Damage. Brains are fragile things.  Is it possible, that I hit my head one day and become an imbecile, who believes in Santa and pisses himself occasionally? Sure. Does that prove existence of a god, or afterlife? Hell, no.

You look for confirmation of your irrational beliefs in things that are ridiculously easy to explain in much simpler ways. I'm sure you like the narrative of "arrogant" non believer becoming a christian and surely it's much less depressing than the reality, that someone lost some of their faculties...

I'm not looking for any kind of confirmation at all, as I explained in my post to Alex that I have no dog in this fight and neither does my faith rely on it. I'm just acknowledging how strange it is for any atheist like you (and most others here) to all of a sudden turn Christian over night, and considering the possibilities of why that would be. Just because I'm thinking out load and trying to have a discussion with you guys about it doesn't mean I'm trying to confirm anything.

Do his medical records say he suffered brain damage? Where's the proof of that?