My views on objective morality

[Bob Kelso]

Carlin said it best imo.

[robvalue]

Brilliant video, perfect!

I made a new thread about this, and I realize I've been calling it dissidence instead of dissonance. Whoops

[BrianSoddingBoru4]

'Pray, v. To ask that the laws of the universe be annulled in behalf of a single petitioner, confessedly unworthy.' - Ambrose Bierce

Boru

[pocaracas]

Backtracking a little...
I think this whole "morality" debate is a bit flawed, as it seems to revolve around "human morality"....
Well, humans are not the sole custodians of morality on this planet. In fact, research indicates that all social animals show some sense of morality, in their own particular way.
The mechanism is well explained in The Selfish Gene, but essentially, individuals are subject to their genes and the genes survive as individuals survive and breed. Genes compel individuals into survival and breeding. In a social setting, the genes which produce empathetic individuals will tend to breed more than the genes which produce individuals that perturb the social well-being.
This means simply that, in any social population, individuals that behave properly will eventually outnumber those that don't, but not necessarily lead the others to "extinction".

Enter man... a late-comer into this whole biological social experiment... Man has developed its social behaviors within a tribal setting, a group of perhaps 50 to 100 individuals. From that setting, we gained out intrinsic "morality". The morality we all share.... well... all... like I said above, variations in this intrinsic genetic trait are to be expected, that is... psychopaths are to be expected... granted, they will be a minority, but they will surface once in a while. In a tribal setting, these psychopaths will be rare and far apart.... in a big city of several thousands, a few are likely to be around at all time.
The need to keep psychopaths in check arises... at the same time, other minor variations to the optimum tribal behavior become prevalent and in need of some regulation.
The urban center poses some extra requirements on the individual's behavior.... but not enough time is provided for evolution to work at the genetic level.
Rules need to be imposed on the people. Rules thought out by the people in charge of these urban centers, with the goal of keeping the urban center peaceful and prosperous (not to mention, keep the ruler where he was ).
Through fallacy after fallacy, in time, the religious gain access to that power, incorporate the rules into their own code and, with more time... come to claim to be the sole origin of those rules.

And now, humans discuss a morality provided by the all-mighty unevidenced creator of the whole cosmos. Devoid of proper context, such notion seems to make sense to the believers in the creator god. For such belief is itself mostly the fruit of faulty mental processes... the same that led religions into power so very long ago.

--- of course, this is a pretty picture, but it has little evidence for it... mostly common sense and a few nuggets from archaeology and biology. Still, it is a far more believable picture than the one proposed by any religion.

---

Prayer, is nothing more than communion with the god in people's minds. Things happen independently from that god, of course, but the prayer makes the believer feel good about it, as the god is seen acting upon the world. The things that happen, seemingly so random, must have some element of control from said god... so, the communion thus achieved is well perceived, regardless of the outcome.
I have no qualms with people praying... I don't see it as dissonant... down deep, it's just a way to cope with some of the randomness of this world.


And there go my

[robvalue]

Then there's morality from a universal standpoint. Is what we're doing somehow fucking up life on other planets? Do rocks actually feel things, and if so, are we treating them properly?

We probably can never answer these questions, which is a demonstration of why morality is generally probability based. No one has all the information, so we do our best with what seems to be true.

What we do on this planet probably matters little to any life on other planets. But they may know far more than us, and judge us immoral because of the ignorant way we're causing [something bad] to happen.

The religious mindset places the edges of the universe around humans, often excluding even animals, our closest companions.

[Thumpalumpacus]

Brilliant video, perfect!

I made a new thread about this, and I realize I've been calling it dissidence instead of dissonance. Whoops

I love the "cognitive dissidence" slip, Rob. In the context of this conversation, it's perfectly apt.

Also, you can't go wrong with George Carlin.

[LadyForCamus]

CL, is flushing your poop morally good?

Oh yes, it is very considerate. Sometimes I am naughty and purposely don't flush it to prank my unsuspecting husband. 

LMAO!  That is hysterical!  I bet you are a blast IRL. ?  You seem like the kind of lady I'd really enjoy having a beer (or six) with.

[Catholic_Lady]

Oh yes, it is very considerate. Sometimes I am naughty and purposely don't flush it to prank my unsuspecting husband. 

LMAO!  That is hysterical!  I bet you are a blast IRL. ?  You seem like the kind of lady I'd really enjoy having a beer (or six) with.

Haha, that's great! 

A lot of women actually don't seem to appreciate my sense of humor. I think it weirds them out or something lol. Always nice to find a kindred spirit. 

[Catholic_Lady]

Here's the deal, CL.

You claim that prayer works for you.  Very well, I doubt it.

I sold my soul to the devil.  I actually did.  I made a pact and everything.  However, I am not a famous, published writer.  Therefore, the devil does not exist.  And neither does god.

Lol, I did? When/where did I say that?

[Catholic_Lady]

So I can't believe I know some things about God without believing I know everything?

How do you know that anything you believe about him is true? How do you know what you don't know? What in your mind tells you that what you think you know is actually true?

How do I know what I don't know? If someone asks me a question, like "why doesn't God do ______", and I don't know why, then I know that I don't know. 

As for how do I know that what I believe is true, again, this is basically a "why are you Catholic" question. Not something that can ever be summed up in a forum post. The short answer is, given everything I have experienced/seen/learned in my life, the faith makes sense to me.