Free will and humans

[KevinM1]

This whole business about forming an algorithm is one big red herring. You admit that computers can form algorithms, but only because humans program them. Well this is tacitly accepting that an algorithm can form an algorithm. If humans can form an algorithm then, it is not necessarily the case that their doing so is non-algorithmic. Algorithms can create algorithms and since that means that human algorithm formation could be algorithmic, it defeats the premise that algorithm formation is a sign of free will, because human algorithm creation could itself be deterministically algorithmic.

That was one of the things I wanted him to realize when I asked him about machine learning (programs literally experiencing and remembering things) and self-modifying code (programs modifying and expanding their own capabilities). Does it really matter that a human seeded it with the initial code? After all, humans are merely biological machines programmed by sequences of chemicals reacting to various electrical impulses. You have a biological machine programming a technological machine. Where's the appreciable difference lie, apart from complexity? Keeping in mind that our brains are the end results of millions of years of evolution and that computer science is less than a century old.

But instead I got "herp derp Einstein."

And it's incredibly obvious that pool hasn't spent any time with computer science. Maybe he's had some intro level programming classes, but that's not the same thing.

[ErGingerbreadMandude]

Yes

Then you do not know much about algorithms or combinatorics; no known linear solution exists for the TSP, at least in general.

Then you have 0 creativity

[ErGingerbreadMandude]

This whole business about forming an algorithm is one big red herring. You admit that computers can form algorithms, but only because humans program them. Well this is tacitly accepting that an algorithm can form an algorithm. If humans can form an algorithm then, it is not necessarily the case that their doing so is non-algorithmic. Algorithms can create algorithms and since that means that human algorithm formation could be algorithmic, it defeats the premise that algorithm formation is a sign of free will, because human algorithm creation could itself be deterministically algorithmic.

That was one of the things I wanted him to realize when I asked him about machine learning (programs literally experiencing and remembering things) and self-modifying code (programs modifying and expanding their own capabilities). Does it really matter that a human seeded it with the initial code? After all, humans are merely biological machines programmed by sequences of chemicals reacting to various electrical impulses. You have a biological machine programming a technological machine. Where's the appreciable difference lie, apart from complexity? Keeping in mind that our brains are the end results of millions of years of evolution and that computer science is less than a century old.

But instead I got "herp derp Einstein."

And it's incredibly obvious that pool hasn't spent any time with computer science. Maybe he's had some intro level programming classes, but that's not the same thing.

Fascinating kev.
So how many computers have made scientific advancements since you feel there is no distinction?

[BrianSoddingBoru4]

In your opinion do you feel that humans possesses free will? What is your opinion on the matter?

It is my opinion that humans does possess free will, so I will be arguing for it. I feel that I do poses free will as I am capable of deciding what I'm going to do in the very next minute. If I didn't poses free will then I should've been incapable of deciding what I'm going to do even in the next second. Thus as I have a control over my actions I have free will.

Simply because your actions feel free doesn't mean they are free. In a deterministic universe where humans have the illusion of free will, it would be impossible to tell whether any of your actions or decision are free. For all you know, EVERY decision you make - what to have for breakfast, what film to see, whom to marry - is simply the inexorable outcome of the mechanistic processes established when the Universe instantiated.

Sleep well.

Boru

[ErGingerbreadMandude]

In your opinion do you feel that humans possesses free will? What is your opinion on the matter?

It is my opinion that humans does possess free will, so I will be arguing for it. I feel that I do poses free will as I am capable of deciding what I'm going to do in the very next minute. If I didn't poses free will then I should've been incapable of deciding what I'm going to do even in the next second. Thus as I have a control over my actions I have free will.

Simply because your actions feel free doesn't mean they are free. In a deterministic universe where humans have the illusion of free will, it would be impossible to tell whether any of your actions or decision are free. For all you know, EVERY decision you make - what to have for breakfast, what film to see, whom to marry - is simply the inexorable outcome of the mechanistic processes established when the Universe instantiated.

Sleep well.

Boru

I'd like some evidence that our future is predefined

[BrianSoddingBoru4]

Simply because your actions feel free doesn't mean they are free.  In a deterministic universe where humans have the illusion of free will, it would be impossible to tell whether any of your actions or decision are free.  For all you know, EVERY decision you make - what to have for breakfast, what film to see, whom to marry - is simply the inexorable outcome of the mechanistic processes established when the Universe instantiated.

Sleep well.

Boru

I'd like some evidence that our future is predefined

I didn't say it was so.  My point was that you have no way of knowing whether it was predefined.  Your choices may only appear to be free.  Let's say that you agonize over which shoe you're going to put on first in the morning.  You finally 'decide' you're going to put on the left one first, all well and good.  But there's simply no way to know if you were going to put on the left one first all along.  Your Footgear Implementation Programme seems free, it feels free, but you can't ever determine if it is free.

Boru

[Jehanne]

[Angrboda]

[ErGingerbreadMandude]

[ErGingerbreadMandude]