Islam in Europe: perception and reality

[abaris]

Here in the UK, the national statistic is "only" something like 4% - but that ignores how a large proportion of that "4%" tends to band together into Muslim-majority neighbourhoods.

How dare they, since every other neighbourhood would welcome them with open arms.

4 percent don't get larger because an unknown percentage tends to bend together. News for you,, jewish communities, at least the more religious ones, tend to do the same. It's only (rightfully) out of fashion to criticise them for doing it. That hate train has moved on to a different minority, who obviously can't do anything right in the eyes of the ones needing someone to despise or at the very least eye suspiciously.

Yes, they tend to move into certain neighbourhoods. But the reasons for doing so are many, if one feels the wish to look closer. It's often run down districts where rents are cheap, since they simply can't afford to move anywhere nice. Being an unskilled worker in todays world, and many of them are, doesn't earn you a fancy loft in garden city. It just happens.

[Thumpalumpacus]

Here in the UK, the national statistic is "only" something like 4% - but that ignores how a large proportion of that "4%" tends to band together into Muslim-majority neighbourhoods.

How dare they, since every other neighbourhood would welcome them with open arms.

4 percent don't get larger because an unknown percentage tends to bend together. News for you,, jewish communities, at least the more religious ones, tend to do the same. It's only (rightfully) out of fashion to criticise them for doing it. That hate train has moved on to a different minority, who obviously can't do anything right in the eyes of the ones needing someone to despise or at the very least eye suspiciously.

Yes, they tend to move into certain neighbourhoods. But the reasons for doing so are many, if one feels the wish to look closer. It's often run down districts where rents are cheap, since they simply can't afford to move anywhere nice. Being an unskilled worker in todays world, and many of them are, doesn't earn you a fancy loft in garden city. It just happens.

Not to mention the "there goes the neighborhood" factor, and the active dislike we see displayed in this very thread.

I wouldn't want to live in a neighborhood where my neighbors refused to judge me as myself, but only as a group they label "scum", to use another poster's term. I would certainly seek out neighborhoods where I was accepted, and those would be neighborhoods where people like me live.

It raises the question -- are these enclaves bent on expansion, or are these ghettoes where undesirables find themselves?

[Regina]

Here in the UK, the national statistic is "only" something like 4% - but that ignores how a large proportion of that "4%" tends to band together into Muslim-majority neighbourhoods.

How dare they, since every other neighbourhood would welcome them with open arms.

4 percent don't get larger because an unknown percentage tends to bend together. News for you,, jewish communities, at least the more religious ones, tend to do the same. It's only (rightfully) out of fashion to criticise them for doing it. That hate train has moved on to a different minority, who obviously can't do anything right in the eyes of the ones needing someone to despise or at the very least eye suspiciously.

Yes, they tend to move into certain neighbourhoods. But the reasons for doing so are many, if one feels the wish to look closer. It's often run down districts where rents are cheap, since they simply can't afford to move anywhere nice. Being an unskilled worker in todays world, and many of them are, doesn't earn you a fancy loft in garden city. It just happens.

You're right. I never said the 4% got "bigger".

It gets more concentrated. And when it gets more concentrated, it gets more visible and loud. It gets more organised.

I don't see many highly segregated "Jewish ghettos" around these days. But let's say even if there were, are Non-Israeli Jews screaming "I'm offended!" every time someone does something modern? Are Non-Israeli Jews (even if it's "not all Jews!") giving death threats and actually going through with them when people do something modern?

The vast majority of immigrants into Western Europe are "unskilled workers". Most manage to integrate fine, as I said earlier.

Islam as a whole body (not talking individuals, for the umpteenth time) comes into conflict wherever it meets people who are different; India, China, Russia, even with non-Muslims in The Middle East. If all these different groups don't seem to mesh well with Islam, it says something. You have to ask the question eventually, is everyone else paranoid, or wait, is it actually their problem? And I think it's just fashionable to throw out the one-sided "Islamophobia" argument. It's deeper than "The West picking on the little powerless brown man's religion". There's a pattern here.

And don't think I'm letting other cultures off the hook with that logic either. The USA is the same, conflict everywhere, it says something.

[abaris]

It raises the question -- are these enclaves bent on expansion, or are these ghettoes where undesirables find themselves?

Only judging by my own experiences in my own environment. Run down houses in the Red Light district, where the whores used to offer themselves in the streets in the 80ies and 90ies. By day the noisiest, most frequented and polluted parts of the city, where an elevated train runs through every three or four minutes. Also highrises on the outskirts of the city, quite modern in the 70ies, but now only populated by people who can't afford any better.

It's also an urban myth that they band together. There's a turkish community, the traditional one, moving in during the 60ies and 70ies, and there are all the other ones, who came in later. The Turks are the only ones having some community clubs.

[abaris]

And don't think I'm letting other cultures off the hook with that logic either. The USA is the same, conflict everywhere, it says something.

Yes, it says something. That the primitive fearmongers are winning everywhere, since there's an abundance of primitive people refraining from looking any deeper than their primitive instincts and fears tell them to.

There's no excuse for condemning any given group of people for just for belonging to that group. There's also no argument to make it look better or more civilised. If someone isn't able to judge on an individual basis, that person is severly lacking social intelligence and common decency.

As far as I remember, you're gay. So you should have your own experiences with being broadbrushed in a negative way.

[Regina]

And don't think I'm letting other cultures off the hook with that logic either. The USA is the same, conflict everywhere, it says something.

Yes, it says something. That the primitive fearmongers are winning everywhere, since there's an abundance of primitive people refraining from looking any deeper than their primitive instincts and fears tell them to.

There's no excuse for condemning any given group of people for just for belonging to that group. There's also no argument to make it look better or more civilised. If someone isn't able to judge on an individual basis, that person is severly lacking social intelligence and common decency.

As far as I remember, you're gay. So you should have your own experiences with being broadbrushed in a negative way.

Whose broadbrushing anyone in a negative way? I'm not talking about individuals, as I've said several times now, I'm talking about dominant cultures. There's a difference, you don't see that nuance.

I don't go about my day assuming individual Muslims think anything, but as an overall whole culture Islam is highly conservative and reluctant to integrate. In fact, often it's Muslims who are the first victims of that ultraconservatism (case in point, a Muslim guy I dated once who was scared to death of his parents finding out he was gay). That is an observable trend you can see in any given society where Islam has a presence, I'm sorry about it.

[abaris]

I don't go about my day assuming individual Muslims think anything, but as an overall whole culture Islam is highly conservative and reluctant to integrate. That is an observable trend you can see in any given society where Islam has a presence, I'm sorry about it.

Which is the poster definition of broadbrushing, since you only assume and don't look at the individuals. And it's not observable, since there are very different islamic cultures and nations. Bosnia doesn't resemble Turkey, Turkey doesn't resemble Indonesia and Indonesia doesn't resemble Egypt. Just to point out a few. It also doesn't take into account all the different variations of Islam, which isn't only divided by Shia and Sunni, but breaks down into very different interpretations. As can be observed, if one is willing to observe and to inform oneself.

[Regina]

You can say a culture is generally one thing without tarring everyone within said culture. There is dissent everywhere. In most Islamic countries (and increasingly in Europe) such dissent gets you in trouble. That's the reality.

I can meet you on saying that Muslim people are not (necessarily) ultraconservative (which I've thought and have been saying all along) but Islam as a political movement is. Yes, you can separate the two. If a person is Muslim, good for them I'm fine with that, I don't care for Islamism.

[Minimalist]

Studies have been done.  Do you think it is possible to characterize nutty xtians in Alabama but not nutty muslims in Germany?

https://www.wzb.eu/en/press-release/isla...ely-spread

Figure 1also shows that religious fundamentalism is much more prevalent among European Muslims than among Christian natives.
Among Christians agreement to the single statements ranges between 13  and 21 per cent and less than 4 per cent  agree with  all three items. In line  with what is known about Christian fundamentalism, levels of agreement are slightly higher  (4% agreeing with  all statements) among mainline  Protestants than among Catholics (3%),  and most pronounced (12%) among the adherents of  non-mainstream  Protestant groups.

However, even among these  groups support for fundamentalist attitudes remains much below  the levels found among Sunni Muslims.

https://www.wzb.eu/en/research/migration...igrant-int

[abaris]

You can say a culture is generally one thing without tarring everyone within said culture.

Culture? What culture? I thought it should be pretty clear that there is no such thing as one culture. Unless you didn't read or understand what I wrote before.