Gods immorality.

[robvalue]

Indoctrinated not to "be like me"? What on earth is that supposed to mean?

What am I like?

[ApeNotKillApe]

Admits they're indoctrinated, at least.

[Crossless2.0]

Indoctrinated not to "be like me"? What on earth is that supposed to mean?

What am I like?

An immoral monster with no respect for man or God. A ravening beast whose appetites can never be satisfied. I sinister Pied Piper, who would lead an innocent generation to damnation just for the hell of it. A liar. A thief. A murdering son-of-a-bitch. A self-worshiping, power-mad lunatic whose corruption is so complete that even the worms wouldn't touch you. The worst thing since New Coke.

Oh, wait. No, that's not it. <Rewind>

A nice skeptic who doesn't buy claims without sufficient reason to do so. Yeah, I can see why no one would want to raise their kids to be like you.

[SteveII]

So, whether I would obey if I were the leader is moot.

Complete dodge of the moral question.

These and other verses indicate that those who have not heard the gospel can still find God.

Can you point to one credible case where someone raised in another religion in another culture, having never been introduced to Judaism or Christianity, suddenly knew about Yahweh and Jesus specifically?

Also, is just the ability to "find God" enough for salvation? If so, who needs Jesus for salvation?

Christ chose to die on the cross for the redemption of everyone who believes.

Therefore, had Christ not chosen to die on the cross for the redemption of everyone who believes, no one would find redemption - even if they believed in God. This belies your previous statement that "those who have not heard of the gospel can still find God." What good is "finding God" without redemption?

Furthermore, why did Jesus not choose to live a long life, spread more divine wisdom directly, and still redeem everyone who believes? What is accomplished through a torturous, bloody death (that isn't really a sacrifice of God's child as you see it)?

---

Steve, at this point, I'm going to let you off the hook as far as I'm concerned. Your depth of cognitive dissonance is apparent to almost anyone reading through this thread. I'm truly sorry it isn't apparent to you. Until you realize the intentional slaughter of innocents, blood sacrifices, and salvation only through belief is not morally justifiable, even for a deity, no matter what the time, place, or circumstances, you will continue to defend the indefensible and dodge the hard moral questions.

No, I would not obey to kill my child because I know that such a command would not be originating from God (for the reasons I have explained at length).

Regarding those that have not heard, this is debated in Christian circles. The Bible only says that those who have not heard can still find him. I don't know what that means in the heart of one of those people.

I can't help it you think that man's moral obligations to each other is the same as God's moral obligations to man. I was merely pointing out that stories like this are not a defeater for God's moral perfection (or any other common characteristic of God). I don't care if you don't like the conclusion, but you cannot claim that it is illogical or inconsistent with the Christian's perception of God. The reason you see it this way is because you arrive with a bias that 1) the Bible is fiction, 2) that God does not exist, 3) that Christ is not who he claimed to be, 4) and all systematic theology is a result of false assertions. All things I do not believe. 

I did not set out to change your mind. Only to point out that this story (while disturbing) does not illustrate inconsistencies in our belief in God.

[SteveII]

Indoctrinated not to "be like me"? What on earth is that supposed to mean?

What am I like?

Someone missing out on vast sections of human experience because of their skepticism. Skepticism that leads to a life denying God exists, that there has been made a way to have a relationship with God, and of course eternal life. It would be painful for a parent who believes these things to have their children walk away because we did not prepare them to answer the next skeptic.

While I believe everything above, I will say that Rob is one of the better people (shows more character) on this forum and probably a pretty good guy in the real world.

[robvalue]

[Wyrd of Gawd]

[drfuzzy]

[robvalue]

I was thinking about this. What Steve said is blatantly false, this forum is full of people who "knew God" and then came to realize that actually they had just been programmed with unfounded beliefs. There's every chance the indoctrination of his kids won't stick.

It makes me sad that he appears proud of having programmed his kids. I never got "programmed with atheism". My parents didn't ever say anything to me about God or religion, that I could remember. They left it entirely up to me to come to my own conclusions about it. I don't even know if they are atheists or not.

Cue No True Scotsman...

[drfuzzy]

The fact that they realize, at some deep level, that their children MUST be indoctrinated points to a fear of questioning.  They are not going to take the risk of letting a child make their own decision at the age of, oh, 18-ish . . . because by then it's too late.  If your beliefs won't stand up to scrutiny, then they should be discarded.