Our server costs ~$56 per month to run. Please consider donating or becoming a Patron to help keep the site running. Help us gain new members by following us on Twitter and liking our page on Facebook!
April 6, 2016 at 4:26 pm (This post was last modified: April 6, 2016 at 4:29 pm by Crossless2.0.)
(April 6, 2016 at 4:10 pm)robvalue Wrote: Indoctrinated not to "be like me"? What on earth is that supposed to mean?
What am I like?
An immoral monster with no respect for man or God. A ravening beast whose appetites can never be satisfied. I sinister Pied Piper, who would lead an innocent generation to damnation just for the hell of it. A liar. A thief. A murdering son-of-a-bitch. A self-worshiping, power-mad lunatic whose corruption is so complete that even the worms wouldn't touch you. The worst thing since New Coke.
Oh, wait. No, that's not it. <Rewind>
A nice skeptic who doesn't buy claims without sufficient reason to do so. Yeah, I can see why no one would want to raise their kids to be like you.
(April 6, 2016 at 12:46 pm)SteveII Wrote: So, whether I would obey if I were the leader is moot.
Complete dodge of the moral question.
(April 6, 2016 at 12:46 pm)SteveII Wrote: These and other verses indicate that those who have not heard the gospel can still find God.
Can you point to one credible case where someone raised in another religion in another culture, having never been introduced to Judaism or Christianity, suddenly knew about Yahweh and Jesus specifically?
Also, is just the ability to "find God" enough for salvation? If so, who needs Jesus for salvation?
(April 6, 2016 at 12:46 pm)SteveII Wrote: Christ chose to die on the cross for the redemption of everyone who believes.
Therefore, had Christ not chosen to die on the cross for the redemption of everyone who believes, no one would find redemption - even if they believed in God. This belies your previous statement that "those who have not heard of the gospel can still find God." What good is "finding God" without redemption?
Furthermore, why did Jesus not choose to live a long life, spread more divine wisdom directly, and still redeem everyone who believes? What is accomplished through a torturous, bloody death (that isn't really a sacrifice of God's child as you see it)? Steve, at this point, I'm going to let you off the hook as far as I'm concerned. Your depth of cognitive dissonance is apparent to almost anyone reading through this thread. I'm truly sorry it isn't apparent to you. Until you realize the intentional slaughter of innocents, blood sacrifices, and salvation only through belief is not morally justifiable, even for a deity, no matter what the time, place, or circumstances, you will continue to defend the indefensible and dodge the hard moral questions.
No, I would not obey to kill my child because I know that such a command would not be originating from God (for the reasons I have explained at length).
Regarding those that have not heard, this is debated in Christian circles. The Bible only says that those who have not heard can still find him. I don't know what that means in the heart of one of those people.
I can't help it you think that man's moral obligations to each other is the same as God's moral obligations to man. I was merely pointing out that stories like this are not a defeater for God's moral perfection (or any other common characteristic of God). I don't care if you don't like the conclusion, but you cannot claim that it is illogical or inconsistent with the Christian's perception of God. The reason you see it this way is because you arrive with a bias that 1) the Bible is fiction, 2) that God does not exist, 3) that Christ is not who he claimed to be, 4) and all systematic theology is a result of false assertions. All things I do not believe.
I did not set out to change your mind. Only to point out that this story (while disturbing) does not illustrate inconsistencies in our belief in God.
April 6, 2016 at 4:45 pm (This post was last modified: April 6, 2016 at 4:47 pm by SteveII.)
(April 6, 2016 at 4:10 pm)robvalue Wrote: Indoctrinated not to "be like me"? What on earth is that supposed to mean?
What am I like?
Someone missing out on vast sections of human experience because of their skepticism. Skepticism that leads to a life denying God exists, that there has been made a way to have a relationship with God, and of course eternal life. It would be painful for a parent who believes these things to have their children walk away because we did not prepare them to answer the next skeptic.
While I believe everything above, I will say that Rob is one of the better people (shows more character) on this forum and probably a pretty good guy in the real world.
April 7, 2016 at 12:49 am (This post was last modified: April 7, 2016 at 1:08 am by robvalue.)
Well, thanks for the sort-of compliment. What experiences am I missing out on? I would actually love to have a relationship with "God", whatever that is. I'm really not in a position to start that relationship. And if he chooses not to either, it's kind of a Mexican stand off. If instead I have to have other people tell me what he's saying to me, it seems like he's just awful at communicating and/or didn't give me the equipment I need to understand. If I have to do all this stuff that other people tell me, and then keep doing it until I get fuzzy feelings, then I'll have no idea if I'm just eventually imaging things or not. And apparently if I don't get the correct messages, you'll just tell me I'm imagining it anyway.
I can't decide to believe in something. It's not a conscious choice. If I have to believe first, before being given the evidence (or him just actually showing up) then he doesn't understand how human minds work. Sceptical ones, at least. For example, can you decide to believe you can fly?
You use scepticism all the time. Everyone does, who isn't completely gullible. You just refuse to turn it inward and apply it to your religion. Not just you, every religious person.
I don't deny God. I don't even know what it is I would be denying. Everyone has a different version of it in their head. Do I deny each and every individual, distinct entity? In fact, no I don't. I think they are all very real. Just not in the same way that the theist does.
As for "some intelligent creator", I actually do not deny this. I have no opinion on whether there is or isn't one. I simply refuse to make a judgement when I have insufficient evidence. But your average God claim is about as far away from this generic designer as you can get. It's been weighed down with so many specifics that the likelihood of it existing, while there is no evidence to back any of it up, sinks to the bottom of the sceptic tank.
I think it's really sad that you think scepticism is a bad thing. Here are my videos where I explain why I think it's a good thing. And you seem to admit that had you not programmed them, they never would have believed you. What does that tell you? Does the truth need jamming into a young mind? And you didn't just make them believe God exists. Your God. Or did you present every religion equally and let them decide?
(April 6, 2016 at 3:43 pm)Time Traveler Wrote: Complete dodge of the moral question.
Can you point to one credible case where someone raised in another religion in another culture, having never been introduced to Judaism or Christianity, suddenly knew about Yahweh and Jesus specifically?
Also, is just the ability to "find God" enough for salvation? If so, who needs Jesus for salvation?
Therefore, had Christ not chosen to die on the cross for the redemption of everyone who believes, no one would find redemption - even if they believed in God. This belies your previous statement that "those who have not heard of the gospel can still find God." What good is "finding God" without redemption?
Furthermore, why did Jesus not choose to live a long life, spread more divine wisdom directly, and still redeem everyone who believes? What is accomplished through a torturous, bloody death (that isn't really a sacrifice of God's child as you see it)? Steve, at this point, I'm going to let you off the hook as far as I'm concerned. Your depth of cognitive dissonance is apparent to almost anyone reading through this thread. I'm truly sorry it isn't apparent to you. Until you realize the intentional slaughter of innocents, blood sacrifices, and salvation only through belief is not morally justifiable, even for a deity, no matter what the time, place, or circumstances, you will continue to defend the indefensible and dodge the hard moral questions.
Quote:No, I would not obey to kill my child because I know that such a command would not be originating from God (for the reasons I have explained at length).
Regarding those that have not heard, this is debated in Christian circles. The Bible only says that those who have not heard can still find him. I don't know what that means in the heart of one of those people.
I can't help it you think that man's moral obligations to each other is the same as God's moral obligations to man. I was merely pointing out that stories like this are not a defeater for God's moral perfection (or any other common characteristic of God). I don't care if you don't like the conclusion, but you cannot claim that it is illogical or inconsistent with the Christian's perception of God. The reason you see it this way is because you arrive with a bias that 1) the Bible is fiction, 2) that God does not exist, 3) that Christ is not who he claimed to be, 4) and all systematic theology is a result of false assertions. All things I do not believe.
I did not set out to change your mind. Only to point out that this story (while disturbing) does not illustrate inconsistencies in our belief in God.
In the Old Testament the God character had people kill their kids all the time. In the New Testament the God character killed his own son. As a believer, are you saying that you believe in your favorite ethnocentric Middle Eastern Jewish deity but that you won't do what he tells you to do? It's off to the lake of fire with you.
This is what pisses me off. We get bombarded with how self evident it is that Christianty (or whatever) is true, yet few parents dare let their kid get to even the age of 7 before indoctrinating them. Let alone older.
What are they scared of? That God is going to mark them down on those childhoods years? Or that if they don't program them early their kid won't believe all the mythology? No one needs to be indoctrinated to believe in mathematics or gravity. Or anything that has reason behind it.
Quote: I have 5 kids -- all indoctrinated so as not to grow up and be like you. You see, once you believe there is a God, all the rest makes sense and falls into place.
I was raised fundamentalist. I didn't claim to be atheist until the age of 46. Don't let your kids learn logic or science or comparative religion - in fact, they probably should avoid college. That indoctrination can be broken. They might start looking at things critically and asking questions.
"The family that prays together...is brainwashing their children."- Albert Einstein
April 8, 2016 at 4:04 am (This post was last modified: April 8, 2016 at 4:09 am by robvalue.)
I was thinking about this. What Steve said is blatantly false, this forum is full of people who "knew God" and then came to realize that actually they had just been programmed with unfounded beliefs. There's every chance the indoctrination of his kids won't stick.
It makes me sad that he appears proud of having programmed his kids. I never got "programmed with atheism". My parents didn't ever say anything to me about God or religion, that I could remember. They left it entirely up to me to come to my own conclusions about it. I don't even know if they are atheists or not.
Cue No True Scotsman...
Feel free to send me a private message.
Please visit my website here! It's got lots of information about atheism/theism and support for new atheists.
The fact that they realize, at some deep level, that their children MUST be indoctrinated points to a fear of questioning. They are not going to take the risk of letting a child make their own decision at the age of, oh, 18-ish . . . because by then it's too late. If your beliefs won't stand up to scrutiny, then they should be discarded.
"The family that prays together...is brainwashing their children."- Albert Einstein
