Game of Thrones Season 6 Discussion [SPOILERS WITHIN]

[AkiraTheViking]

Lets talk about the most exciting thing that happened in this episode.

The Hound  flopped his wiener, granted he was taking a piss, but it still counts. 

Your eyes are either much better than mine or else your tele is huge.  For a man that big he may have the smallest member of all time.  If they didn't show the piss hitting the water I would have thought he was miming taking a piss.  That was no wiener.  Poor guy.

It is 32", the TV not his dick, but yeah they showed him pulling it out and you get to see it for sec before they cut to the next shot. It plops out really nice. I won't mind sucking it.

---

[...] Aryia is coming home, all the Starks  are. Time to Roll Out and get back Winterfell.

Yeah, about that... How come no one in the North is mentioning Bran - like - at all. I mean - on the show Jon has known, that Bran was alive and gallivanting around White Walker country, for a couple of seasons now - doesn't seem like it's been bothering him much. I'm not sure if he fancies himself the heir of Winterfell, or if he's rallying banners in Sansa's name - but he doesn't seem to mention Bran or Rikkon, even though - if alive - they would have a better claim to the North, being true-born and male. 

And even if Jon is just an uncaring bastard, now that Rikkon re-surfaced, several people should be at least wondering about the fate of his older brother, as it's become apparent, that Theon Greyjoy didn't actually kill the Stark boys.

Didn't John or Sansa mention Brian a couple of episodes ago? I can't remember but I know either one of them mentions him. The mere fact that Rikkon was resurfaced and might face a Reek torture is proof that John cares about them. But still having a strong claim on witerfell means nothing Ramsay, the dude literally killed his dad and brother to get the throne, he could easily kill them, though brian would have a better chance seeing as how he could take over animals. No the only way to win back the throne is ironically through a hostile takeover. Still Brian and Rikkon aren't the only ones that have a better claim over the North, Aryia and Sansa has just as much right as the two boys.

[Homeless Nutter]

Didn't John or Sansa mention Brian a couple of episodes ago? I can't remember but I know either one of them mentions him.

I don't recall anything of the sort, but I may be mistaken. Still - a passing mention is not what I had in mind.

The mere fact that Rikkon was resurfaced and might face a Reek torture is proof that John cares about them.

Not at all. Remember, that Jon didn't want to attack Winterfell - Rikkon, or no Rikkon. It was Sansa, who talked him into taking revenge for their family. And Jon never did anything - as far as we know - to try and find Bran, when Sam told him Bran was alive - not even ask the wildlings, who know the land north of the wall. Some of them are wargs and could have used birds to look for him from the air. Or they could have noticed Bran's wolf, while hunting, or something.

Even Stanis could have helped - if Jon told him about Bran being alive. Perhaps when Stannis offered to make Jon a true Stark and the lord of Winterfell. "Sorry my lord, but my half-brother is alive and I don't want to deprive him of his inheritance." - or something to that effect. Stanis's army could have looked for him, because the heir of Winterfell would be a very good political card for Stannis to have. With the rightful King in the North by his side, Stannis could have gathered northern houses against Boltons instead of getting slaughtered with an army of sell-swords.

But Jon did exactly nothing. I guess he figured out, that even though Bran can't walk - he'd surely be fine, north of the wall, with a couple of kids and a non-violent mentally handicapped guy, to keep him safe from wildlings, wights and White Walkers...

But still having a strong claim on witerfell means nothing Ramsay,[...]

Not true. Ramsey married Sansa specifically for her claim to Winterfell - and he wants her back for the same reason, which is why he sent the letter to Jon. Of course - when he was marrying her, he didn't know if Rikkon was still alive and he's still not sure about Bran, but as far as most of Westeros knew - both were killed by Theon, which is why Sansa's claim was the best at the time. Sure - Ramsey has Rikkon now, but he probably means to just torture and kill him, if he hasn't already, because Rikkon being alive undermines Sansa's - and therefore her husband's - right to Winterfell.

Still Brian and Rikkon aren't the only ones that have a better claim over the North, Aryia and Sansa has just as much right as the two boys.

Not according to the customs/laws of Westeros. As far as I know, the only place in Westeros, where women and men have equal right to inherit lands and titles is Dorne. Everywhere else - legitimate male offspring has priority over their sisters - even the older ones. That's why Joffrey and Tommen were made kings before Marcella. It's a feudal, medieval-like, sexist society - what did you expect?

[pocaracas]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a89GNMCJaJU

[Aegon]

Really though, Arya's plot this season was fucking terrible just bad writing

[Whateverist]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a89GNMCJaJU

That was fun and actually made sense.  I think.

[FatAndFaithless]

Really though,  Arya's plot this season was fucking terrible   just bad writing

Meh, I don't think so.  Everyone knew that she was always Arya Stark and was never going to become 'No one.'  Now she's got the skills of a real deadly assassin, has her sword, and is rededicated to the Stark name.  

There was one or two things that irked me though, and I suspect it's just a case of the show being so much more crunched for time than the books.  1) When the waif ambushed her, she didn't have Needle.  I'm not even that upset that she seemed a little careless; she had just booked passage home and took literally 5 seconds to look at the sunset.  But she wouldn't go anywhere without Needle, it's a part of her, and it's her protection.  
2) This is the biggest one.  She magically heals two stab wounds to the stomach in what seems like a few days, and is then parkouring away from the T1000 waif-inator.  Again, this is much harder to do in the show than the books, because in the books you can just say like "weeks passed..."  but in the show we have to see everything.  it was a little jarring, certainly.


But "fucking terrible" and "bad writing"?  I disagree strongly.  The theater troupe was great, especially as it rekindled her Stark-ness when she saw her family in the play.  Also, Lady Crane and the dwarf in the troupe were really funny. There were those two hangups that I mentioned (one larger than the other), but calling it "fucking terrible" is a bit of an overreaction.

[Aegon]

Really though,  Arya's plot this season was fucking terrible   just bad writing

Meh, I don't think so.  Everyone knew that she was always Arya Stark and was never going to become 'No one.'  Now she's got the skills of a real deadly assassin, has her sword, and is rededicated to the Stark name.  

There was one or two things that irked me though, and I suspect it's just a case of the show being so much more crunched for time than the books.  1) When the waif ambushed her, she didn't have Needle.  I'm not even that upset that she seemed a little careless; she had just booked passage home and took literally 5 seconds to look at the sunset.  But she wouldn't go anywhere without Needle, it's a part of her, and it's her protection.  
2) This is the biggest one.  She magically heals two stab wounds to the stomach in what seems like a few days, and is then parkouring away from the T1000 waif-inator.  Again, this is much harder to do in the show than the books, because in the books you can just say like "weeks passed..."  but in the show we have to see everything.  it was a little jarring, certainly.


But "fucking terrible" and "bad writing"?  I disagree strongly.  The theater troupe was great, especially as it rekindled her Stark-ness when she saw her family in the play.  Also, Lady Crane and the dwarf in the troupe were really funny.  There were those two hangups that I mentioned (one larger than the other), but calling it "fucking terrible" is a bit of an overreaction.

The biggest problem is with the show's concept of the Faceless Men and the House of Black and White. Jaqen has put it in the viewers' heads that a true Faceless Man is "no one," with no past, no identity, only existing to serve the Many-Faced Gods and pay the debts of death. It is implied in the show (and clearly noted in the novels) that the Waif is a FM herself. Not a trainee like Arya, but someone who has been serving the House of Black and White for some time. Yet, she's the worst FM ever, if we go by what the show has led us to believe the FM are like. The Waif clearly holds a personal grudge against Arya, she asks to personally assassinate Arya, and she tries to kill her in a painful manner which Jaqen told her not to do. That's "no one"? And yeah, you could argue that that was the point; the Waif wasn't truly a FM and being defeated by Arya was sort of the Waif's final test, which she failed. But when Arya, who clearly is exactly the same despite being able to kill the bitch, comes back Jaqen praises her and acts like she passed the tests and now she's suddenly "no one", with no past, no identity, only existing to serve the Many-Faced God. Like, what? This goes against everything we've come to know about the Faceless Men, show and book.

The two things you mentioned were also an even bigger deal IMO. Do you know why there were so many theories about how Arya from Ep. 7 may not be the real Arya, or Arya set it all up, etc. etc? Because otherwise what you're left with is really, really shit writing. Walking around out in the open with no protection making a scene for any FM around by buying a voyage home with a shit ton of cash (using her right hand, despite being left-handed), then taking a little stroll....and then not thinking it was suspicious when an old lady got mad close to her even though she's been training for god knows how long and should know not to trust anyone since the FM can take anybody's face...it was just ridiculous. Out of character, and the scene was only written that way for the viewer to be shocked when the Waif shanked her. There was no logic beyond that.

The story definitely had its shining moments, but with a conclusion this bad (IMO) I can't truly be satisfied by most of it. In the end it just felt like a way for Arya to pass the time while other characters actually did shit.

[SteelCurtain]

The biggest problem is with the show's concept of the Faceless Men and the House of Black and White. Jaqen has put it in the viewers' heads that a true Faceless Man is "no one," with no past, no identity, only existing to serve the Many-Faced Gods and pay the debts of death. It is implied in the show (and clearly noted in the novels) that the Waif is a FM herself. Not a trainee like Arya, but someone who has been serving the House of Black and White for some time. Yet, she's the worst FM ever, if we go by what the show has led us to believe the FM are like. The Waif clearly holds a personal grudge against Arya, she asks to personally assassinate Arya, and she tries to kill her in a painful manner which Jaqen told her not to do. That's "no one"? And yeah, you could argue that that was the point; the Waif wasn't truly a FM and being defeated by Arya was sort of the Waif's final test, which she failed. But when Arya, who clearly is exactly the same despite being able to kill the bitch, comes back Jaqen praises her and acts like she passed the tests and now she's suddenly "no one", with no past, no identity, only existing to serve the Many-Faced God. Like, what? This goes against everything we've come to know about the Faceless Men, show and book.

I think that was the point, though. Jaqen's betrayal of character was a condensation of the 'lesson' that Arya was to learn in Braavos. Arya's final lesson wasn't the one that Jaqen intended, but he gave it to her, nonetheless.

The point was that there is no purity of motive in this world. It's an overarching theme throughout the novels. No matter who the character---Ned Stark, Robb Stark, Jon Snow, Sansa, Arya, Jaqen H'ghar---there is no one that is not touched be greed of some sort, or personal desire that overtakes their true motive. Arya always treated certain people like paragons of virtue, to a fault. Jaqen is one of them. Him telling her "now, a girl is finally no one" was just as clearly bullshit to you and me as it was to her.

I think in the books, the theme of religion being clearly the invention and tool of men is important as well. The Faceless God is just as much of a sham as the Seven and R'hllor.

GRRM wrote a 5 year gap in Arya's story. There was a lot to condense, and with only 15 episodes left, I think they had to move that story line along quickly. I hate that it was zipped up so quickly, but I don't think it was that awful.

The two things you mentioned were also an even bigger deal IMO. Do you know why there were so many theories about how Arya from Ep. 7 may not be the real Arya, or Arya set it all up, etc. etc? Because otherwise what you're left with is really, really shit writing. Walking around out in the open with no protection making a scene for any FM around by buying a voyage home with a shit ton of cash (using her right hand, despite being left-handed), then taking a little stroll....and then not thinking it was suspicious when an old lady got mad close to her even though she's been training for god knows how long and should know not to trust anyone since the FM can take anybody's face...it was just ridiculous. Out of character, and the scene was only written that way for the viewer to be shocked when the Waif shanked her. There was no logic beyond that.

The story definitely had its shining moments, but with a conclusion this bad (IMO) I can't truly be satisfied by most of it. In the end it just felt like a way for Arya to pass the time while other characters actually did shit.

I agree that Arya was not being smart if she wasn't trying to lure the waif.

I think she was. I think she knew that the only way to be done with the FM was to get a face on the wall. She would never be safe, even within the walls of Winterfell. The suspicion would drive her mad, when every face she sees could be the waif coming to collect that score.

I also think that Arya wasn't well matched against the waif, and that's why it went terribly. She has never finished any training she started. The end game was clearly supposed to be a dark room with needle. She was blind for a long time, she can fight without light. She is a water dancer. I thought that part was especially poignant, and made the whole scene for me. It was Arya returning to Arya, student of the First Sword of Braavos.

Other men were stronger, faster, younger, why was Syrio Forel the best? I will tell you now. The seeing, the true seeing, that is the heart of it.

To drive it home, she delivers the face to the wall, and tells Jaqen it's over. He takes off his 'mask' for her, and shows her it was all a show. This wraps up the Lady Crane, waif, and Jaqen story in a nice bow.

The more I think about it, the less I hate it. It was hurried, but I don't think it was terrible.

[Homeless Nutter]

[...]But "fucking terrible" and "bad writing"?  I disagree strongly. [...]

Yeah... No - it was pretty f*cking terrible.

The main problem is, that the show has been dragging the Faceless Men plot since season 2 - building up expectations. At least the Dorne abortion lasted for less than 2 seasons, before it's nonsensical, rushed conclusion. Arya's Bravos plot was a snooze-fest at the best of times, but there was hope, that it will be redeemed, by some awesome twist, or revelation at the end. But no - we just got another pointless struggle of the protagonist against a psychotic, sadistic bully.

Obviously the writers realized, that this kind of easy to understand plot worked before, with Sansa and Joffrey and then Sansa and Ramsey and few other times in between. So - in the absence of the next book to take cues from - they again went with this fake, cliche conflict with the Waif, in order to finish off the Bravos plot in the most predictable, boring and pointless way - with some running, rolling, hacking and slashing to placate the less demanding viewers. Because it's time to have Arya back in Westeros, I guess. Exactly the same move, they pulled off with Sansa when she needed to somehow end up in the North - they made Littlefinger idiotically give her to Ramsey, so the audience could enjoy her being in distress again, since that seemed to strike a note before. Boring, predictable, lazy writing...

Some of my questions, the answers to which we'll almost certainly never get on the show:

Why were the Faceless Men interested in Arya at all, despite her screw-ups and obvious inability to get rid of her past and her identity?

What did most of the mystical nonsense spewed by the inhabitants of the House of Black and White mean?

What skills did Arya acquire during her training? The last time she spoke to Jaqen, before quitting, she was told she was not ready to wear a face, so what can she do - other than peel one off of a dead body, apparently?

Why did the Waif passionately hate Arya?

Why did Arya think, she could f*ck over a guild of assassins and get away with parading unarmed in the streets?

Why did Jaqen allow for his subordinates to bleed each other in full public view?

Why doesn't anyone else in Bravos ever react to Arya being beaten/murdered?

If the Waif beating blind Arya was supposed to be Faceless Men training - how come the Waif herself is not very good at fighting in the dark? She's clearly more advanced than Arya in her training, if not a fully-fledged assassin.

Why didn't the Waif finish Arya after stabbing her in the stomach? Why didn't she fish out her body, in order to retrieve her face, at the very least?

Why didn't the Faceless Men kill Lady Crane immediately after Arya f*cked the job up, but instead waited until Arya healed from her abdominal stab-wound, enough to be able to parkour around town? I mean - if simply clubbing the actress brutally to death and wrapping her around a chair was always an option - why wait? And anyway - the dumb b*tch was STILL drinking from her f*cking bottle - I guess she didn't understand the concept of poison - so the Waif could have just done the same thing Arya did.

...

I could go on, but what's the point? At least that crappy plot is over and done with and we can try to forget about it, at least until the next book comes out. But it's kind of sad, that the show writers feel the need to dumb down the plots to such an extent, making people act out of character, in order to advance the plot and make it transparent to the widest audience. Oh, well - the price of popularity, I guess...

[Aroura]

I usually go out of my way to excuse the show for things, but I gotta gree about the Arya plot. I don't actually mind that it ends in her learning that she cannot become a faceless man, it's just not her. But how stupid Arya was, there was no luring there. She had her back turned, and let someone come right up to her. The stab wounds were obviously bad, but they mostly heal up pretty goddamn fast, and then the terminator/waif chase scene was almost comical it was so terrible.

I understand that GRRM tries to upset expectations, which is why it's ok that she does not become a faceless man. It's not wasted time, it's time we all, audience and characters, spent learning about who Arya truly is. That's fine. IT was how they wrapped it up. All action, no sense, that is upsetting.

Anyway, most of the rest of the show is maintining a more thoughtful writing style, so I'm hoping that was a one off thing.

I'm excited to see the battle for Winterfell next week!