Hope for America!!

[robvalue]

I was spanked, but my deluded parents now deny it ever happened.

I don't remember enough to know how much and how hard, or if there was further physicality.

My parents did a fair job in some regards, and royally fucked me up in others. They were generally more partial to psychological abuse, which I'm sure has a lot to do with how I am even now. My mother stood by and watched my father grind me down until I had nothing left and wanted to die.

Both my brothers are also broken people.

[Drich]

No, i didn't say you had to beat your kids. I just said your a 'hippy free range butt clown" If you didn't and you let your kids do whatever they want. Some kids can be reasoned with. If you have kids smart enough to reason with them then you are indeed lucky or Losty (I forgot who is who now) if not and you have a monster who does not have the capacity for reason, and he needs someone to 'tap the brakes' once and a while and you don't, then you are raising a monster and inturn a bad person yourself because you cant do what needs to be done to reign in an out of control child.

I saw this lady once who had 6 kids at the local Mc donalds and they were literally climbing the walls, screaming and crying throwing ketchup packs at each other and at other customers. I look at the lady she was broken. I mouthed do you need help? she nodded, so i grabbed the biggest one by the arm and told him very sternly his mom just ask me to take him out side and tan is back side, if he did not calm down now. He looked up at her she nodded, and that was it. the other instantly fell back into line and did not say a word.

Again, they at the point of frenzy were beyond reason or control. It's obvious they knew what an spanking was well enough to know what i was threatening to do. I didn't have to do anything more than simply let them know their was someone willing and able to 'bring the pain' if common social behavior was not observed even if they did not understand any of those words.

The point? If you child need discipline then you must be willing to do whatever it takes no matter what to reel them in the frame work of our society (in my case system of belief) otherwise if you let them free range they will be unto you as you are unto Christianity.

Well that's the difference between myself and that woman. If my kids were acting out and I was broken. (It has happened back when I had 5 kids  one with autism and I was very sick) If someone asked me if I needed help I may have said yes. If that someone proceeded to grab my child and threaten them that someone would be in jail for assault and battery.

My children are not angels. I am lucky because my kids are relatively easier than other kids. But I think a lot of that comes from my parenting style. My kids are not afraid. They trust me. They listen to what I ask of them because they know that I live my entire life for them. I do everything in my power to make sure they have all the things they want and need. I let them make their own choices (mostly with how they dress and small things). I listen to them and I respect their thoughts, opinions, and concerns. And I never ever hit them, nor would I ever allow anyone to ever hit them. I teach them constructive ways to solve conflicts. Just as I can stop a child for a talk about what choices we think are best and why we should and shouldn't do things, my kids can stop themselves and ask themselves these questions and make good choices...for themselves.

That's the reason they're good kids. Also, there are no kids who are monsters...only parents.

"There are no bad kids only bad parents." That's a saying my best friend who "works with" (bad) kids says. I do agree for the most part, but I've seen both. I've seen twins one a model child the other the polar opposite. No matter what we like to tell ourselves, all were not created equal. some are just smarter than others. some are more emotional and stronger. Some are 'gay' (the real meaning of the word) and friendly as the day is long while other are angry and spiteful. Parents have a strong influence over children, they do whether they use this influence or not, but in the end it is upto the kid to decide who he will or will not be. To say only one type of parenting is going to always work on every single personality, and level of comprehension is beyond foolish. It it worked for you 5 times out of 5 then with a full heart i applaud your efforts. However if it only worked 3 times out of 5 and you let the other 2 run a muck because what worked with the other 3 didn't work with them and you were not willing to meet their need. Then I would be reluctant to applaud your efforts in the same way.

Did you see what i said there? Do you understand that even if your method of parenting failed 2 of your children I do not hold you in the same contempt that you and some of your peers levied against me?

While I might see you as a free range hippy douche I'm not about forcing you to comply with something you are not equip to administer. I am not about forcing you to adopt something your not equipped to do. I am simply content to disagree, even though you by letting two of your kids free range into whatever trouble they want, which can do far more damage than a simple swat( in a non emotion controlled environment) can.

why do you think the supposed nonviolent side can be so militant (even threatening physical harm to the adult) that could potentially save a kids life?

[I_am_not_mafia]

What makes you think I don't nor did not always have limits?

Physical discipline is always a emotionless calculated decision, meant to disrupt a bad or destructive behavior. The type of swat or the amount of swatting involved is based on infraction and severity or number of times this behavior has been dealt with prior.

Once the behavior has been torn down with a spanking the child is built back up, the set up to this disipline is as important and consistency with discipline as well as the discussion and goal setting afterward, along with follow up and follow through.

So which is it?

On the one hand you are saying that you hit a child until you get the results that you want. You are admitting that there is no actual limit to how much you will hit a child.

If the child continues to rebel, how far are you personally willing to go?

But on the other hand you suggest that you have limits. What are those limits?

Do you personally know how much you are willing to hit a child?

Still waiting for an answer to this. Especially as you have since said this:

The point? If you child need discipline then you must be willing to do whatever it takes no matter what to reel them in the frame work of our society

[Drich]

that's my point sportress It only talks about framing those people in a negitive light. You asked me to evaluate their book on parenting. The article does not go into detail of the article just says what horrible people they are.

I am not like you. I can not/will not evaluate someone's work based on what i think of them personally. To me truth is truth no matter who or where it comes from. I do not discern truth based on what I think about someone. Therefore i can not make a judgement based on what the wiki page says about their book.

It says something about holding a child in cold water, and placing a cookie in front of a toddler and telling them no.
I've done both.

I've had a kid with 104.5*F fever and he was delirious I held him down in an Ice bath while he struggled to get his temp down.
-and-
Then I have had a whole bowl of M&Ms on a coffee table set out for guests and told the kids not to touch it.

Does that make me a bad person? Is Putting a kid in freezing wate ALWAYS a bad thing? No it can save a life or at the very least prevent brain damage. again Context frames the truth. Now if you weren't an easily manipulated douche, and you read the actual book this web page cherry picks from and you see these two examples framed out like this or in a similar fashion does it mean these 'supposedly bad people' did something wrong?

No.

But again the web page does not do that. It cherry picks two instances and fills an empty mind with a "kill the messenger and you will have destroyed the message" sentiment.

And this is what you want me to do. you want me to look at what someone says makes these people bad, and condem the work before I even can evaluate it.

That is what I'm saying is the majority approach done here to me. attack the messenger because he can't spell, attack the messenger because his values are different, attack the messenger's up bringing, love, empathy, or fill in the blank at any one of the things you "good people" have done.

Not one of you has yet addressed the message. Not one of you has gone point by point line by line as i do with each on my responses. Just stories of past tragic failures, of broken people taking the easy way out of disipline and training by literally going through the motions, but non of the follow up.

So no. I will not be like one of you. i can not comment on a book when the information given is about the author.

No, the truth is you are not a college degree child psychiatrist or psychologist. Gaining submission through force isn't all there is to a kid's brain. But, considering you worship an authoritarian god not surprising you cant understand how wrong you are using simplistic binary black and white thinking.

Appeals to authority fail when simple reference material is cited that supports the arguments...

I've already done that.

Do and try to keep up old sport.

[Jackalope]

[Drich]

How do you know one of the kids I raised is not already an adult and married and has a kid herself? And that she is not just like me except she says she will not vote for trump?

I don't.  How do you know the future?

That's right, you don't. Dumbfuck. Prideful, ignorant dumbfuck. Prideful, ignorant, abusive, soulless dumbfuck.

I'm talking about the present smart guy. I'm saying I have an adult child who has children.

[I_am_not_mafia]

How far are you willing to go to hurt your own child Drich if hitting them doesn't give the results that you are hoping for?

[Drich]

So which is it?

On the one hand you are saying that you hit a child until you get the results that you want. You are admitting that there is no actual limit to how much you will hit a child.

If the child continues to rebel, how far are you personally willing to go?

But on the other hand you suggest that you have limits. What are those limits?

Do you personally know how much you are willing to hit a child?

Still waiting for an answer to this. Especially as you have since said this:

The point? If you child need discipline then you must be willing to do whatever it takes no matter what to reel them in the frame work of our society

I see your confusion. It's based on my use of the term "whatever it takes." You wrongly assume "what ever it takes" refers to an escalation in violence. again no. Whatever it take simple refers not taking any tools or methods off the table. If spanking is not working then one must move on. if it is then you have your answer there as well.

Did you see that Chalupa Dreaming? that's how you give someone enough slack to hang themselves... You let them think they have you on your heels and when the press in for the kill you kick out the chair and "ack" (the sound one makes when they are being hung)

[Losty]

Well that's the difference between myself and that woman. If my kids were acting out and I was broken. (It has happened back when I had 5 kids  one with autism and I was very sick) If someone asked me if I needed help I may have said yes. If that someone proceeded to grab my child and threaten them that someone would be in jail for assault and battery.

My children are not angels. I am lucky because my kids are relatively easier than other kids. But I think a lot of that comes from my parenting style. My kids are not afraid. They trust me. They listen to what I ask of them because they know that I live my entire life for them. I do everything in my power to make sure they have all the things they want and need. I let them make their own choices (mostly with how they dress and small things). I listen to them and I respect their thoughts, opinions, and concerns. And I never ever hit them, nor would I ever allow anyone to ever hit them. I teach them constructive ways to solve conflicts. Just as I can stop a child for a talk about what choices we think are best and why we should and shouldn't do things, my kids can stop themselves and ask themselves these questions and make good choices...for themselves.

That's the reason they're good kids. Also, there are no kids who are monsters...only parents.

"There are no bad kids only bad parents." That's a saying my best friend who "works with" (bad) kids says. I do agree for the most part, but I've seen both. I've seen twins one a model child the other the polar opposite. No matter what we like to tell ourselves, all were not created equal. some are just smarter than others. some are more emotional and stronger. Some are 'gay' (the real meaning of the word) and friendly as the day is long while other are angry and spiteful. Parents have a strong influence over children, they do whether they use this influence or not, but in the end it is upto the kid to decide who he will or will not be. To say only one type of parenting is going to always work on every single personality, and level of comprehension is beyond foolish. It it worked for you 5 times out of 5 then with a full heart i applaud your efforts. However if it only worked 3 times out of 5 and you let the other 2 run a muck because what worked with the other 3 didn't work with them and you were not willing to meet their need. Then I would be reluctant to applaud your efforts in the same way.

Did you see what i said there? Do you understand that even if your method of parenting failed 2 of your children I do not hold you in the same contempt that you and some of your peers levied against me?

While I might see you as a free range hippy douche I'm not about forcing you to comply with something you are not equip to administer. I am not about forcing you to adopt something your not equipped to do. I am simply content to disagree, even though you by letting two of your kids free range into whatever trouble they want, which can do far more damage than a simple swat( in a non emotion controlled environment) can.

why do you think the supposed nonviolent side can be so militant (even threatening physical harm to the adult) that could potentially save a kids life?

You have no business holding me in contempt. I hold you in contempt because you seem to think it's ok to hit someone if they don't act how you want them to. It's not. I spent 23 years being hit by people who loved me and only meant to mold me into the best person they wanted me to be. First my parents. Very consistent. Very structured. Then my husband.

The difference between you and I is that I think it's worse for an adult to hit a child than it is for a spouse to hit a spouse. They're both awful, but children have no way to defend themselves. They can't leave. They can't fight back. They have no options. Children depend on adults for their very survival. Children are the most vulnerable humans. They should be protected not hit.

It's disgusting to hit a child. It's not loving. It is training. I was trained (among many things) to be submissive and obedient to those who are bigger than me. I was trained to believe that if someone physically hurts me it's because of my own character flaws.

When my parents, and then my husband hit me, I truly believed it was because I wasn't a good enough person, because I was failing them, because my character needed building.

When you hit your kids you train them up to believe a lot of things that aren't true.

[robvalue]

I'm so sorry for all the harm those horrible people did to you Losty

It's amazing such a wonderful person came out the other side of it