EU: Should the UK Leave or Stay?

[Edwardo Piet]

The Queen is a cunt and it is accident of birth that I am British. We must stay in the EU, Europe is greater than so-called "Great Britain". The Queen can fuck off and so can nationalism.

[abaris]

The Queen can fuck off and so can nationalism.

Amen to that. Especially to the sdecond part. Personally I'm always quite amused when someone with a slavic name feels the need to propagate German identity and culture - as is often the case where I live. It's obvious they aren't purebloods. Just idiots defining themselves over some shitty idea instead of their own achievements.

[Edwardo Piet]

Nationalism is a fucking virus.

[abaris]

Nationalism is a fucking virus.

Always was. It's the chimp way of guarding your territory.

[Edwardo Piet]

Exactly. Tribalism is amoral at best.

[Thumpalumpacus]

Interesting discussion.

From an outsider's perspective, I remember thinking as a kid that the EEC was a good thing, that it would lead to a "United States of Europe. Of course, I didn't know a damned thing about politics or culture then, so had no clue about the difficulties which come from trying to knit together societies that span a broad range of peoples and outlooks.

I think what is happening right now is that the Europeans are (re)learning the problems with confederation that we Americans discovered in having a supernumerary government that was not strong enough to deliver on promises. Of course, the Europeans have added the twist of allowing the supragovernment to impose itself on local laws. It seems to me that confederations might be inherently unstable?

It's a shame you can't have limited the EU's powers to economic and foreign policies, and left the rest of the governmental duties to the participating governments.

Ahh, yes. Lecture me on 'listening' why don't you. Yanks seem to be good at this whole hypocrisy thing.

You say the stupidest shit when you get wound up.

[Napoléon]

You say the stupidest shit when you get wound up.

Well I guess if people didn't say such stupid shit to me in the first place I wouldn't say stupid shit back.

I've read back through this and it really is ironic that I'm accused of only using emotional arguments and not listening.

Seems like the opposite is happening to me.

I listed multiple reasons and points, none of which have much to do with emotion.

We spend 8.5 billion a year net on the EU. Fact.

The open border policy of the EU has directly enabled the free movement of terrorists across the continent. Fact.

Unelected EU officials have a say in at least 50% of UK laws. Fact.

But Obama's speech was persuasive and he made valid points? Am I missing something? All he basically said was that the UK was stronger in the EU and that we'd be the bottom of his priority list in creating a new trade deal.

Well with the latter, quite frankly I think you're an absolute moron if you think this will actually be the case. And with the former, he has literally no basis for saying this. How can the UK be stronger in an economic/political union that has no control over its own borders, that has already seen multiple countries go bankrupt, that the UK is the second largest monetary contributor, that has a massive disparity between the poorest countries and the richest? Who in their right mind believes this except for the incredibly idealistic?

Instead of mindlessly believing and putting faith in a United States of Europe, take a step back and look at what the EU actually is.

This in reality has nothing to do with nationalism, or the fucking god damn queen. It's to do with getting out of a mindless political project that is undemocratic and clearly doomed.

And to Rob, saying that it doesn't matter why Obama is getting involved. Are you kidding me dude? Since when does obvious bias not matter?

I know I get wound up by this but it is something I feel strongly about, and I find the people who keep banging on about staying like to preach that they have the logic and rational thinking in favour of their position. It couldn't be further from the truth in my opinion. It seems to me to be these very people who are ignorant of the facts, whose only arguments are "we're stronger together", which is nothing more than idealistic, unfounded tripe in the context of what the EU actually currently is, or "if we leave it will be bad for the economy", which is nothing more than doomsday prophesizing in a situation where nobody has any clue what will actually be the most beneficial in the long run.

End rant.

[emjay]

nevermind

[Sterben]

They should stay in the EU, based on the fact countries work better together then separate. A lesson America needs to learn, and needs to learn fast. If Britain left the EU there be a massive hole in the EU. I know there having a massive issue with the migrants, all because there split on the issue that does not mean the union should rip it's self apart.

[Thumpalumpacus]

You say the stupidest shit when you get wound up.

Well I guess if people didn't say such stupid shit to me in the first place I wouldn't say stupid shit back.

I've read back through this and it really is ironic that I'm accused of only using emotional arguments and not listening.

Seems like the opposite is happening to me.

I listed multiple reasons and points, none of which have much to do with emotion.

We spend 8.5 billion a year net on the EU. Fact.

The open border policy of the EU has directly enabled the free movement of terrorists across the continent. Fact.

Unelected EU officials have a say in at least 50% of UK laws. Fact.

But Obama's speech was persuasive and he made valid points? Am I missing something? All he basically said was that the UK was stronger in the EU and that we'd be the bottom of his priority list in creating a new trade deal.

Well with the latter, quite frankly I think you're an absolute moron if you think this will actually be the case. And with the former, he has literally no basis for saying this. How can the UK be stronger in an economic/political union that has no control over its own borders, that has already seen multiple countries go bankrupt, that the UK is the second largest monetary contributor, that has a massive disparity between the poorest countries and the richest? Who in their right mind believes this except for the incredibly idealistic?

Well, I've refrained from offering this imputed opinion, or any other opinion for that matter on the current issue, other than providing a comparison from history. But I haven't accused you of emotional argumentation, nor have I even paid attention to Obama's speech on the matter in order to form a sound judgment of his points. My own inclination is to concern myself with the doings in my own country and not bother or badger citizens elsewhere about theirs own doings when they don't affect me, and when I'm clearly not as well-informed as they are about their more-local events and issues. I like learning about other places and other issues, but understand that some opinions are worth more than others, and on this issue, my opinions, such as they are, aren't terribly deep and are even less relevant.

For what it's worth, I've enjoyed this discussion, reading both sides of it, because it's making me think -- your points included.

The only reason why I pointed out the fact that you say stupid shit sometimes is because gratuitous generalizations are irksome to me ... especially a Limey criticizing Yanks for hypocrisy. My irony meter faltered for a bit on that one.

Outside that one bit, I'm finding the views here interesting and informative, from both sides.

Carry on.