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RE: Why is Allah holding Iblis to a different standard than the other Jinn?
June 2, 2016 at 3:54 am (This post was last modified: June 2, 2016 at 4:01 am by Sheed1980.)
(May 19, 2016 at 5:38 pm)MrNoMorePropaganda Wrote: I'm also wondering if Iblis is a Jinn or not. The Quran seems confused on this.
Quran 18:50 says that Ibilis is a Jinn: Behold! We said to the angels, "Bow down to Adam": They bowed down except Iblis. He was one of the Jinns, and he broke the Command of his Lord. Will ye then take him and his progeny as protectors rather than Me? And they are enemies to you! Evil would be the exchange for the wrong-doers!
Or is Quran 2:34, which says Iblis is an angel right?
And behold, We said to the angels: "Bow down to Adam" and they bowed down. Not so Iblis: he refused and was haughty: He was of those who reject Faith.
Quran 15:30 - 31 also claims Iblis is an angel: So the angels prostrated themselves, all of them together: (30) Not so Iblis: he refused to be among those who prostrated themselves.(31)
I can't find where it says other Jinn refused to bow to Adam. If such an Iyaht is in the Quran then that creates more problems than it solves. Here are a few that I can see:
1. Why are the other Jinn not banished?
2. All Jiinn are make of this "smokeless fire" stuff so why is Iblis any different?
3. Again, why is Allah hold Iblis to a different standard to the other Jiinn (or angels)?
4. And, while we're at it, how can something be made from fire when fire is a chemical reaction taking place?
5. Smokeless fire is impossible?
6. And let's not forget the angels, of which Iblis may or not have been one of. How can something be made of only photons?
Quran 7:11 - 12 seems to say that Iblis is an Angel made of fire even though it's the Jinn who are made of fire, not the angels: It is We Who created you and gave you shape; then We bade the angels prostrate to Adam, and they prostrate; not so Iblis; He refused to be of those who prostrate. (10) (Allah) said: "What prevented thee from prostrating when I commanded thee?" He said: "I am better than he: Thou didst create me from fire, and him from clay."
And don't the Iyaht saying Iblis refused to bow to Adam contradict Qutan 16:50 - 51 which say angels have no free will:
And to Allah doth obeisance all that is in the heavens and on earth, whether moving (living) creatures or the angels: for none are arrogant (before their Lord). (49) They all revere their Lord, high above them, and they do all that they are commanded. (50)
Why is the Quran so confusing?
What u have to understand is that just as man was created from dust (earth),angels are created from light and jinn are created from fire. Men and jinn were created by God with free-will where angels were not. Just as a human being can't naturally fly or breath underwater, angels CANNOT disobey God. It is not encoded into their so to say DNA. So because angels do not have free will the jinn were the superior creation of God at the time. Iblis was also a believing good jinn who as God's greatest creation was placed above the angels in stature and amongst them in Paradise. When God told the angels He was going to create man He sent them down to Earth to grab piles of dirt. Black dirt and white dirt, and red dirt and brown dirt and yellow dirt (which is why we all come in different colors). The dirt was mixed with water to make it a sticky mud or clay and moulded into a statue of Adam pbuh. God brought him to life and told all of the beings in Paradise to prostrate in honor to His greatest creation mankind. All of the angels obeyed their Lord and prostrated to His greatest creation Adam pbuh. But Iblis refused. He said "My Lord You created me from fire and him from mud I am better than he is." So by Iblis first disobeying God shows he was not an angel. Secondly he said "I am made from FIRE" this proves he was a jinn and not an angel. This is why God says He created jinn from smokeless fire. When fire burns something chemically it turns into smoke. So the fire that was smokeless was fire that God created Himself, that didn't come from sulfur, wood or any other flammable material. With God nothing is impossible. When He determines a matter He only says to it "Be" and it is. So it's not confusing it's just ur misunderstanding
RE: Why is Allah holding Iblis to a different standard than the other Jinn?
June 2, 2016 at 4:02 am
Sheed1980, you really need to work on your paragraphing. When I get come tonight I'll examine your reply in more detail. But thanks for trying elaborate at least.
RE: Why is Allah holding Iblis to a different standard than the other Jinn?
June 2, 2016 at 6:01 am
I am made from fire, too. Does that prove I'm a jinn?
At the age of five, Skagra decided emphatically that God did not exist. This revelation tends to make most people in the universe who have it react in one of two ways - with relief or with despair. Only Skagra responded to it by thinking, 'Wait a second. That means there's a situation vacant.'
RE: Why is Allah holding Iblis to a different standard than the other Jinn?
June 2, 2016 at 3:53 pm (This post was last modified: June 2, 2016 at 4:01 pm by ReptilianPeon.)
(June 2, 2016 at 3:54 am)Sheed1980 Wrote:
(May 19, 2016 at 5:38 pm)MrNoMorePropaganda Wrote: I'm also wondering if Iblis is a Jinn or not. The Quran seems confused on this.
Quran 18:50 says that Ibilis is a Jinn: Behold! We said to the angels, "Bow down to Adam": They bowed down except Iblis. He was one of the Jinns, and he broke the Command of his Lord. Will ye then take him and his progeny as protectors rather than Me? And they are enemies to you! Evil would be the exchange for the wrong-doers!
Or is Quran 2:34, which says Iblis is an angel right?
And behold, We said to the angels: "Bow down to Adam" and they bowed down. Not so Iblis: he refused and was haughty: He was of those who reject Faith.
Quran 15:30 - 31 also claims Iblis is an angel: So the angels prostrated themselves, all of them together: (30) Not so Iblis: he refused to be among those who prostrated themselves.(31)
I can't find where it says other Jinn refused to bow to Adam. If such an Iyaht is in the Quran then that creates more problems than it solves. Here are a few that I can see:
1. Why are the other Jinn not banished?
2. All Jiinn are make of this "smokeless fire" stuff so why is Iblis any different?
3. Again, why is Allah hold Iblis to a different standard to the other Jiinn (or angels)?
4. And, while we're at it, how can something be made from fire when fire is a chemical reaction taking place?
5. Smokeless fire is impossible?
6. And let's not forget the angels, of which Iblis may or not have been one of. How can something be made of only photons?
Quran 7:11 - 12 seems to say that Iblis is an Angel made of fire even though it's the Jinn who are made of fire, not the angels: It is We Who created you and gave you shape; then We bade the angels prostrate to Adam, and they prostrate; not so Iblis; He refused to be of those who prostrate. (10) (Allah) said: "What prevented thee from prostrating when I commanded thee?" He said: "I am better than he: Thou didst create me from fire, and him from clay."
And don't the Iyaht saying Iblis refused to bow to Adam contradict Qutan 16:50 - 51 which say angels have no free will:
And to Allah doth obeisance all that is in the heavens and on earth, whether moving (living) creatures or the angels: for none are arrogant (before their Lord). (49) They all revere their Lord, high above them, and they do all that they are commanded. (50)
Why is the Quran so confusing?
What u have to understand is that just as man was created from dust (earth),angels are created from light and jinn are created from fire. Men and jinn were created by God with free-will where angels were not. Just as a human being can't naturally fly or breath underwater, angels CANNOT disobey God. It is not encoded into their so to say DNA. So because angels do not have free will the jinn were the superior creation of God at the time. Iblis was also a believing good jinn who as God's greatest creation was placed above the angels in stature and amongst them in Paradise. When God told the angels He was going to create man He sent them down to Earth to grab piles of dirt. Black dirt and white dirt, and red dirt and brown dirt and yellow dirt (which is why we all come in different colors). The dirt was mixed with water to make it a sticky mud or clay and moulded into a statue of Adam pbuh. God brought him to life and told all of the beings in Paradise to prostrate in honor to His greatest creation mankind. All of the angels obeyed their Lord and prostrated to His greatest creation Adam pbuh. But Iblis refused. He said "My Lord You created me from fire and him from mud I am better than he is." So by Iblis first disobeying God shows he was not an angel. Secondly he said "I am made from FIRE" this proves he was a jinn and not an angel. This is why God says He created jinn from smokeless fire. When fire burns something chemically it turns into smoke. So the fire that was smokeless was fire that God created Himself, that didn't come from sulfur, wood or any other flammable material. With God nothing is impossible. When He determines a matter He only says to it "Be" and it is. So it's not confusing it's just ur misunderstanding
The first thing to say is Quran 2:34 doesn't say "We said to the Jinn* and the angels". It reads: "We said to the angels". It doesn't make a distinction for any Jinn present. It only mentions Iblis and the Angels. So I think it was reasonable to conclude the verse is Iblis is an Angel. We assume, based on other verses, that Iblis is not an Angel.
*Or Iblis and the Angels
I can accept that Iblis was never an Angel. What I'm saying is the verse is not clear. I wouldn't have known based on that verse alone. Quran 2:34, in particular, is worded quite misleadingly I would say. The Tafsir scholars agree with you, but most people, especially in the 3rd word, don't have access to the vast volumes of Tafsir - and may be illiterate. The interpretation of the Tafsir scholars seems forced - nowhere in the passage Quran 2:34 is taken from does it make a disinfection for Iblis (as far as I'm aware).
E.g. Quran 2:31 says "And He taught Adam the names of all things; then He placed them before the angels, and said: "Tell me the names of these if ye are right."" and Quran 2:30 "Behold, thy Lord said to the angels: "I will create a vicegerent on earth." They said: "Wilt Thou place therein one who will make mischief therein and shed blood?- whilst we do celebrate Thy praises and glorify Thy holy (name)?" He said: "I know what ye know not.""
Again we see the Quran not making a distinction. It doesn't say "Angels and Jinn" or "Angels and Iblis", even though both Jinn and Angels were supposed to be present. Quran 2:30 says Allah only talked to Angels, even though Iblis is supposed to have been present. Quran 2:34 says only Angels were told to prostrate. Does this mean Iblis was not given the same instructions as the Angels seeing as only Angels were instructed by Allah? Why isn't the Quran being clear with us?
We see this theme again in Quran 20:116
"And when We said unto the angels: Fall prostrate before Adam, they fell prostrate (all) save Iblis; he refused."
The Quran is misleading us into thinking Iblis is Angel again. There verse never mentions the Jinn having to prostrate. Only Angels. Why doesn't it say "We said unto the Jinn and the Angels" or "Iblis and the Angels".
But let's put that aside for the moment. What is the benefit to creating Jinn? How does this help creation? Do they serve any useful purpose?
The smokeless fire part always loses me. Why have Jinn not been detected yet? Fire is heat. Why do we not feel the heat of their fire or have any means of detecting their fire? What tools (and you can speculate on future technology here) would I need to detect a Jinn?
RE: Why is Allah holding Iblis to a different standard than the other Jinn?
June 2, 2016 at 11:43 pm
(June 2, 2016 at 3:53 pm)MrNoMorePropaganda Wrote:
(June 2, 2016 at 3:54 am)Sheed1980 Wrote: What u have to understand is that just as man was created from dust (earth),angels are created from light and jinn are created from fire. Men and jinn were created by God with free-will where angels were not. Just as a human being can't naturally fly or breath underwater, angels CANNOT disobey God. It is not encoded into their so to say DNA. So because angels do not have free will the jinn were the superior creation of God at the time. Iblis was also a believing good jinn who as God's greatest creation was placed above the angels in stature and amongst them in Paradise. When God told the angels He was going to create man He sent them down to Earth to grab piles of dirt. Black dirt and white dirt, and red dirt and brown dirt and yellow dirt (which is why we all come in different colors). The dirt was mixed with water to make it a sticky mud or clay and moulded into a statue of Adam pbuh. God brought him to life and told all of the beings in Paradise to prostrate in honor to His greatest creation mankind. All of the angels obeyed their Lord and prostrated to His greatest creation Adam pbuh. But Iblis refused. He said "My Lord You created me from fire and him from mud I am better than he is." So by Iblis first disobeying God shows he was not an angel. Secondly he said "I am made from FIRE" this proves he was a jinn and not an angel. This is why God says He created jinn from smokeless fire. When fire burns something chemically it turns into smoke. So the fire that was smokeless was fire that God created Himself, that didn't come from sulfur, wood or any other flammable material. With God nothing is impossible. When He determines a matter He only says to it "Be" and it is. So it's not confusing it's just ur misunderstanding
The first thing to say is Quran 2:34 doesn't say "We said to the Jinn* and the angels". It reads: "We said to the angels". It doesn't make a distinction for any Jinn present. It only mentions Iblis and the Angels. So I think it was reasonable to conclude the verse is Iblis is an Angel. We assume, based on other verses, that Iblis is not an Angel.
*Or Iblis and the Angels
I can accept that Iblis was never an Angel. What I'm saying is the verse is not clear. I wouldn't have known based on that verse alone. Quran 2:34, in particular, is worded quite misleadingly I would say. The Tafsir scholars agree with you, but most people, especially in the 3rd word, don't have access to the vast volumes of Tafsir - and may be illiterate. The interpretation of the Tafsir scholars seems forced - nowhere in the passage Quran 2:34 is taken from does it make a disinfection for Iblis (as far as I'm aware).
E.g. Quran 2:31 says "And He taught Adam the names of all things; then He placed them before the angels, and said: "Tell me the names of these if ye are right."" and Quran 2:30 "Behold, thy Lord said to the angels: "I will create a vicegerent on earth." They said: "Wilt Thou place therein one who will make mischief therein and shed blood?- whilst we do celebrate Thy praises and glorify Thy holy (name)?" He said: "I know what ye know not.""
Again we see the Quran not making a distinction. It doesn't say "Angels and Jinn" or "Angels and Iblis", even though both Jinn and Angels were supposed to be present. Quran 2:30 says Allah only talked to Angels, even though Iblis is supposed to have been present. Quran 2:34 says only Angels were told to prostrate. Does this mean Iblis was not given the same instructions as the Angels seeing as only Angels were instructed by Allah? Why isn't the Quran being clear with us?
We see this theme again in Quran 20:116
"And when We said unto the angels: Fall prostrate before Adam, they fell prostrate (all) save Iblis; he refused."
The Quran is misleading us into thinking Iblis is Angel again. There verse never mentions the Jinn having to prostrate. Only Angels. Why doesn't it say "We said unto the Jinn and the Angels" or "Iblis and the Angels".
But let's put that aside for the moment. What is the benefit to creating Jinn? How does this help creation? Do they serve any useful purpose?
The smokeless fire part always loses me. Why have Jinn not been detected yet? Fire is heat. Why do we not feel the heat of their fire or have any means of detecting their fire? What tools (and you can speculate on future technology here) would I need to detect a Jinn?
Well as u see with the fall of Iblis to Satan in the Qur'an he told Allah for throwing him out of Paradise he would deceive the sons of Adam pbuh and lead them astray. Allah told him he and whoever follows him shall be thrown into Hellfire. So before mankind was created Jinn were the only free-willed being. But just as there are good and bad people, there are good and bad jinn as well. But if u read closely in the Qur'an Allah told the angels, before Adam pbuh was even created, He was going to create a vicegerent to live on Earth. So Allah knew that Adam and Eve would disobey Him and fall from Paradise. That was His plan as a lesson for them to beware of Satan. He is an enemy to all mankind and he will try to trick u on Earth just as he tricked u in Paradise at the forbidden tree. So perhaps jinn were created by God to test mankind in this life. It was the father of Jinn Iblis who tricked our father of mankind Adam pbuh to begin the test of God for us as humans. Just because jinn are made from fire doesn't mean we have to feel them. Angels are made from light but we can't see them in their angelic form. Oxygen has atoms but we can't see or feel them. God is there but we can't see Him. Point being just because we humans can't see or feel something doesn't mean it's not there. Jinn have been detected. Jinn are what u as Christians would refer to as spirits or demons. Evil jinn use their God-given powers to possess humans and assist them with black magic and conjuration. As jinn and humans are forbade by God to do magic they all have free-will and will stand before Him in judgment. Those of us who believe and worship Him alone, seeking and are blessed with His forgiveness when we sin on those shall be no fear nor shall they grieve, and will find their home in a world of joy and satisfaction. But as for those who disbelieve, drawing upon themselves His wrath and anger, for them will be a painful destruction and torment.
RE: Why is Allah holding Iblis to a different standard than the other Jinn?
June 4, 2016 at 7:06 am (This post was last modified: June 4, 2016 at 7:29 am by ReptilianPeon.)
(June 2, 2016 at 11:43 pm)Sheed1980 Wrote:
(June 2, 2016 at 3:53 pm)MrNoMorePropaganda Wrote: The first thing to say is Quran 2:34 doesn't say "We said to the Jinn* and the angels". It reads: "We said to the angels". It doesn't make a distinction for any Jinn present. It only mentions Iblis and the Angels. So I think it was reasonable to conclude the verse is Iblis is an Angel. We assume, based on other verses, that Iblis is not an Angel.
*Or Iblis and the Angels
I can accept that Iblis was never an Angel. What I'm saying is the verse is not clear. I wouldn't have known based on that verse alone. Quran 2:34, in particular, is worded quite misleadingly I would say. The Tafsir scholars agree with you, but most people, especially in the 3rd word, don't have access to the vast volumes of Tafsir - and may be illiterate. The interpretation of the Tafsir scholars seems forced - nowhere in the passage Quran 2:34 is taken from does it make a disinfection for Iblis (as far as I'm aware).
E.g. Quran 2:31 says "And He taught Adam the names of all things; then He placed them before the angels, and said: "Tell me the names of these if ye are right."" and Quran 2:30 "Behold, thy Lord said to the angels: "I will create a vicegerent on earth." They said: "Wilt Thou place therein one who will make mischief therein and shed blood?- whilst we do celebrate Thy praises and glorify Thy holy (name)?" He said: "I know what ye know not.""
Again we see the Quran not making a distinction. It doesn't say "Angels and Jinn" or "Angels and Iblis", even though both Jinn and Angels were supposed to be present. Quran 2:30 says Allah only talked to Angels, even though Iblis is supposed to have been present. Quran 2:34 says only Angels were told to prostrate. Does this mean Iblis was not given the same instructions as the Angels seeing as only Angels were instructed by Allah? Why isn't the Quran being clear with us?
We see this theme again in Quran 20:116
"And when We said unto the angels: Fall prostrate before Adam, they fell prostrate (all) save Iblis; he refused."
The Quran is misleading us into thinking Iblis is Angel again. There verse never mentions the Jinn having to prostrate. Only Angels. Why doesn't it say "We said unto the Jinn and the Angels" or "Iblis and the Angels".
But let's put that aside for the moment. What is the benefit to creating Jinn? How does this help creation? Do they serve any useful purpose?
The smokeless fire part always loses me. Why have Jinn not been detected yet? Fire is heat. Why do we not feel the heat of their fire or have any means of detecting their fire? What tools (and you can speculate on future technology here) would I need to detect a Jinn?
Well as u see with the fall of Iblis to Satan in the Qur'an he told Allah for throwing him out of Paradise he would deceive the sons of Adam pbuh and lead them astray. Allah told him he and whoever follows him shall be thrown into Hellfire. So before mankind was created Jinn were the only free-willed being. But just as there are good and bad people, there are good and bad jinn as well. But if u read closely in the Qur'an Allah told the angels, before Adam pbuh was even created, He was going to create a vicegerent to live on Earth. So Allah knew that Adam and Eve would disobey Him and fall from Paradise. That was His plan as a lesson for them to beware of Satan. He is an enemy to all mankind and he will try to trick u on Earth just as he tricked u in Paradise at the forbidden tree. So perhaps jinn were created by God to test mankind in this life. It was the father of Jinn Iblis who tricked our father of mankind Adam pbuh to begin the test of God for us as humans. Just because jinn are made from fire doesn't mean we have to feel them. Angels are made from light but we can't see them in their angelic form. Oxygen has atoms but we can't see or feel them. God is there but we can't see Him. Point being just because we humans can't see or feel something doesn't mean it's not there. Jinn have been detected. Jinn are what u as Christians would refer to as spirits or demons. Evil jinn use their God-given powers to possess humans and assist them with black magic and conjuration. As jinn and humans are forbade by God to do magic they all have free-will and will stand before Him in judgment. Those of us who believe and worship Him alone, seeking and are blessed with His forgiveness when we sin on those shall be no fear nor shall they grieve, and will find their home in a world of joy and satisfaction. But as for those who disbelieve, drawing upon themselves His wrath and anger, for them will be a painful destruction and torment.
Quote:Well as u see with the fall of Iblis to Satan in the Qur'an he told Allah for throwing him out of Paradise he would deceive the sons of Adam pbuh and lead them astray
And even though Allah loves humans Allah does nothing to stop Iblis? How can a mere human do battle with such a powerful entity as Iblis? That is what is expected of us, yes?
If Allah came and told me to bow to Adam I would bow down, because I know that I would lose any fight with Allah. There is nothing to be gained from not bowing down. Allah, the creator of everything, will win in the end - not matter what - so why bother fighting?
Would you say the hellfire is an absence of Allah? If so, then Allah cannot be "omnipresent" because Allah cannot be in all places at once if Allah is not also in the hellfire. What business does Allah have in the hellfire? Does Allah know what it feels like to suffer in the hellfire?
This story in the Quran about Iblis has a lot in common with the creation story of the Zarathustrians, which I elaborate on below. Did you also know that Zarathustrians are also required to wash before prayers (their version of wudu) and pray five times a day? (they have their own version of Salah too).
Authentic Gatha Zoroastrianism has an article titled:
And it explains this ritual washing before each prayer:
Quote:Before each Gah, i.e., time to meditate/pray, each Zoroastrian must perform “pádyáp” or “kushti pádyáp” ceremony. Face and limbs are washed 3 times, the first 2 times with flower extracts, cucumber juice and oils, substituted by soap and lotion at these times and finally with water. The mouth must be washed/rinsed thoroughly with a refreshing juice and/or mouthwash.
1. Zarathustrians have the sunrise prayer (Hávan) which is equivalent to Fajr,
2. Then comes the noon prayer (Rapithwin) which is equivalent to Zuhr.
3. Uzayäirin is the afternoon prayer which is equivalent to Asr
4. Aiwi-srüthrim is the evening/night prayer and is equivalent to Maghrib
5. úsha.hin is the might night until dawn payer which is equivalent to Isha.
And for each prayer you have to wash yourself like in you do for Wudu.
Anyhow, here is a summary of the creation story:
1. Ahura Mazda (the monotheistic deity of Zarathustrians) created man after every other living thing was created. Sky came first, then water, then the Earth (which was flat at first), then the plants, then the non-human animals and, finally, humans.
2. Ahura Mazda, after creating man, asked the Evil Spirit to praise (bow to) Gayomard, the first man. The Evil Spirit refused, claimed that it was far better than man (just like Iblis).
3. Ahura Mazda knew the Evil Spirit and the other demons wanted to destroy creation.
4. The reason there is sickness and death is because the Evil Spirit refused to praise man - like Ahura Mazda wanted it to. Like how you say the fall of Iblis led people astray, the reason we have suffering
5. All on this Zoroastrian children's website: http://www.zoroastriankids.com/creation.html
This is all very suspect, if you don't mind me saying. If we examine the life of the prophet Zarathustra (who also preached strict monotheism) we see so many similarities with Muhammad. I shall quote myself from the other topic:
(January 5, 2016 at 11:04 am)MrNoMorePropaganda Wrote: There was a man who, in his thirties, started receiving revelations from an angel of god. He was a good man, but those in power didn't appreciate his preaching. Those in power offered him everything, but still he kept on preaching, determined that people should know the truth.
If you thought I was talking about Zarathustra you'd be correct. But you'd also be correct if you thought I was talking about Muhammad. Isn't that interesting? When the marauders from southern Arabia invaded Persia they must have copied from the Zarathustrians. Wow!
RE: Why is Allah holding Iblis to a different standard than the other Jinn?
June 5, 2016 at 1:09 am
(June 4, 2016 at 7:06 am)MrNoMorePropaganda Wrote:
(June 2, 2016 at 11:43 pm)Sheed1980 Wrote: Well as u see with the fall of Iblis to Satan in the Qur'an he told Allah for throwing him out of Paradise he would deceive the sons of Adam pbuh and lead them astray. Allah told him he and whoever follows him shall be thrown into Hellfire. So before mankind was created Jinn were the only free-willed being. But just as there are good and bad people, there are good and bad jinn as well. But if u read closely in the Qur'an Allah told the angels, before Adam pbuh was even created, He was going to create a vicegerent to live on Earth. So Allah knew that Adam and Eve would disobey Him and fall from Paradise. That was His plan as a lesson for them to beware of Satan. He is an enemy to all mankind and he will try to trick u on Earth just as he tricked u in Paradise at the forbidden tree. So perhaps jinn were created by God to test mankind in this life. It was the father of Jinn Iblis who tricked our father of mankind Adam pbuh to begin the test of God for us as humans. Just because jinn are made from fire doesn't mean we have to feel them. Angels are made from light but we can't see them in their angelic form. Oxygen has atoms but we can't see or feel them. God is there but we can't see Him. Point being just because we humans can't see or feel something doesn't mean it's not there. Jinn have been detected. Jinn are what u as Christians would refer to as spirits or demons. Evil jinn use their God-given powers to possess humans and assist them with black magic and conjuration. As jinn and humans are forbade by God to do magic they all have free-will and will stand before Him in judgment. Those of us who believe and worship Him alone, seeking and are blessed with His forgiveness when we sin on those shall be no fear nor shall they grieve, and will find their home in a world of joy and satisfaction. But as for those who disbelieve, drawing upon themselves His wrath and anger, for them will be a painful destruction and torment.
Quote:Well as u see with the fall of Iblis to Satan in the Qur'an he told Allah for throwing him out of Paradise he would deceive the sons of Adam pbuh and lead them astray
And even though Allah loves humans Allah does nothing to stop Iblis? How can a mere human do battle with such a powerful entity as Iblis? That is what is expected of us, yes?
If Allah came and told me to bow to Adam I would bow down, because I know that I would lose any fight with Allah. There is nothing to be gained from not bowing down. Allah, the creator of everything, will win in the end - not matter what - so why bother fighting?
Would you say the hellfire is an absence of Allah? If so, then Allah cannot be "omnipresent" because Allah cannot be in all places at once if Allah is not also in the hellfire. What business does Allah have in the hellfire? Does Allah know what it feels like to suffer in the hellfire?
This story in the Quran about Iblis has a lot in common with the creation story of the Zarathustrians, which I elaborate on below. Did you also know that Zarathustrians are also required to wash before prayers (their version of wudu) and pray five times a day? (they have their own version of Salah too).
Authentic Gatha Zoroastrianism has an article titled:
And it explains this ritual washing before each prayer:
Quote:Before each Gah, i.e., time to meditate/pray, each Zoroastrian must perform “pádyáp” or “kushti pádyáp” ceremony. Face and limbs are washed 3 times, the first 2 times with flower extracts, cucumber juice and oils, substituted by soap and lotion at these times and finally with water. The mouth must be washed/rinsed thoroughly with a refreshing juice and/or mouthwash.
1. Zarathustrians have the sunrise prayer (Hávan) which is equivalent to Fajr,
2. Then comes the noon prayer (Rapithwin) which is equivalent to Zuhr.
3. Uzayäirin is the afternoon prayer which is equivalent to Asr
4. Aiwi-srüthrim is the evening/night prayer and is equivalent to Maghrib
5. úsha.hin is the might night until dawn payer which is equivalent to Isha.
And for each prayer you have to wash yourself like in you do for Wudu.
Anyhow, here is a summary of the creation story:
1. Ahura Mazda (the monotheistic deity of Zarathustrians) created man after every other living thing was created. Sky came first, then water, then the Earth (which was flat at first), then the plants, then the non-human animals and, finally, humans.
2. Ahura Mazda, after creating man, asked the Evil Spirit to praise (bow to) Gayomard, the first man. The Evil Spirit refused, claimed that it was far better than man (just like Iblis).
3. Ahura Mazda knew the Evil Spirit and the other demons wanted to destroy creation.
4. The reason there is sickness and death is because the Evil Spirit refused to praise man - like Ahura Mazda wanted it to. Like how you say the fall of Iblis led people astray, the reason we have suffering
5. All on this Zoroastrian children's website: http://www.zoroastriankids.com/creation.html
This is all very suspect, if you don't mind me saying. If we examine the life of the prophet Zarathustra (who also preached strict monotheism) we see so many similarities with Muhammad. I shall quote myself from the other topic:
(January 5, 2016 at 11:04 am)MrNoMorePropaganda Wrote: There was a man who, in his thirties, started receiving revelations from an angel of god. He was a good man, but those in power didn't appreciate his preaching. Those in power offered him everything, but still he kept on preaching, determined that people should know the truth.
If you thought I was talking about Zarathustra you'd be correct. But you'd also be correct if you thought I was talking about Muhammad. Isn't that interesting? When the marauders from southern Arabia invaded Persia they must have copied from the Zarathustrians. Wow!
(1)And even though Allah loves humans Allah does nothing to stop Iblis? How can a mere human do battle with such a powerful entity as Iblis? That is what is expected of us, yes? Answer:Allah gave Satan free-will to disobey. When he disobeyed Allah, Allah evicted him from Paradise. This made Satan extremely upset so he promised to lead the sons of Adam astray, thinking he was threatening Allah in a way. So Allah tells him "You and anyone who follows your lead I will certainly fill Hell with. But I assure you, you will only lead astray those whom I chose not to guide, for those whom I guide none can lead them astray"
(2)If Allah came and told me to bow to Adam I would bow down, because I know that I would lose any fight with Allah. There is nothing to be gained from not bowing down. Allah, the creator of everything, will win in the end - not matter what - so why bother fighting? Answer:The reason Satan (Iblis) didn't bow to Adam pbuh was because of his pride and arrogance. His creator, Allah specifically said "Prostrate (in honor) to MY GREATEST CREATION ADAM" Iblis told himself "I know Allah is my creator and The Lord of the entire universe, but I am better than Adam because I'm made from FIRE and he is made from clay. So regardless of what my All-Knowing Lord Allah says, I know I'm better than Adam". And to this day Allah is still the All-Forgiving God who forgives ALL SINS except dying in a state of disbelief or polytheism. Satan knows this, but because of his pride he has not repented and asked Allah for His forgiveness yet. He continues to tell himself "I am better than Adam regardless of what Allah says". And my question to u my friend is Since Allah is commanding u to his straight path of Islam for ur own bettering, and u know u can't defeat Allah, why haven't u accepted Islam and worship Allah alone as ur only god? If u know He is God and u fear His power and His wrath but also desire His guidance and His mercy, shouldn't u obey His command?
(3)Would you say the hellfire is an absence of Allah? If so, then Allah cannot be "omnipresent" because Allah cannot be in all places at once if Allah is not also in the hellfire. What business does Allah have in the hellfire? Does Allah know what it feels like to suffer in the hellfire? Answer: Allah is All-Seeing, All-Knowing and has dominion over ALL things this includes Hellfire. We can't look at Allah as physically being in something because He has no physical form. Of course He knows what Hellfire feels like. He created it. He created it to give pain, and torment to His creatures that will abide in it due to their deeds in this life. This is why He gives us many explanations of the humiliating, painful punishments of Hellfire. He knows how it will affect its denizens and what they will feel and how excruciating the pain will be because He created exactly to be that way. So in the Qur'an take full note of the pains and descriptions of Hellfire and also the pleasures and bliss of Paradise and decide which u would rather be in, and base ur belief and actions to meeting that goal.
(4)This story in the Quran about Iblis has a lot in common with the creation story of the Zarathustrians, which I elaborate on below. Did you also know that Zarathustrians are also required to wash before prayers (their version of wudu) and pray five times a day? (they have their own version of Salah too). Answer: These were Persians who were near Arabia and the Middle East. So many of their cultures and lifestyles (aside from religion and worship), had similarities with Islam. All of God's prophets pbut all, prayed to God alone. If u read in the bible Genesis 17:3 Abraham pbuh fell on his face and prayed to God. Just as Jesus pbuh fell on his face and prayed to God in Matthew 26:39 and Mark 14:35. If u notice we as Muslims to this day fall on our faces when we pray to God, just as prophets of old pbut and those who followed their true teachings did. Ablution or washing with water before prayer is a form of cleansing physically and spiritually before we stand before our creator in prayer.
(5)There was a man who, in his thirties, started receiving revelations from an angel of god. He was a good man, but those in power didn't appreciate his preaching. Those in power offered him everything, but still he kept on preaching, determined that people should know the truth.
If you thought I was talking about Zarathustra you'd be correct. But you'd also be correct if you thought I was talking about Muhammad. Isn't that interesting? When the marauders from southern Arabia invaded Persia they must have copied from the Zarathustrians. Wow! Answer: Well Prophet Muhammad pbuh was 40 years old when he first received the revelation from Angel Gabriel pbuh. Aside from this all of God's prophets were revealed their prophecy through God's Angel Gabriel pbuh and at all different years of age. Except Moses pbuh whom God spoke to directly at the burning bush on Mt. Sinai. So point being this false Persian religion copied many revelations of God to His true prophets pbut in His true religion.
RE: Why is Allah holding Iblis to a different standard than the other Jinn?
June 5, 2016 at 6:30 am
Quote:Answer:Allah gave Satan free-will to disobey. When he disobeyed Allah, Allah evicted him from Paradise. This made Satan extremely upset so he promised to lead the sons of Adam astray, thinking he was threatening Allah in a way. So Allah tells him "You and anyone who follows your lead I will certainly fill Hell with. But I assure you, you will only lead astray those whom I chose not to guide, for those whom I guide none can lead them astray"
So what you're saying is we are paying the price because Allah created Satan when there clearly was no need to. Allah, the all-knowing (Al-ʿAlim, one of the ninety-nine names of Allah), knew Satan would lead the sons of Adam astray. Yes, the Quran has several verses saying something to the effect of "Allah guides whom he wills".
If the the case that people are guided by Allah, why are you on Atheist Forums? If Allah guides people then you have no business doing Dawah because Allah would guide these people without you telling them about Allah. It's like those people who protest draw Muhammad events. They know, really, that Allah won't do a Quran 13:13 on the people drawing Muhammad so they have to do the work of Allah for Allah.
Quote:The reason Satan (Iblis) didn't bow to Adam pbuh was because of his pride and arrogance.
And why did Satan have pride and arrogance? The answer is because Allah did not create him humble. Allah didn't have to create Satan.
Quote:All-Knowing Lord Allah says, I know I'm better than Adam
But Satan is better than Adam. Adam is not supernatural. Satan is objectively more powerful than Adam. If I could chose between clay and fire I'd chose fire without hesitation. Clay just sits there doing nothing. Fire is animated; it can grow - it's hot and it has a much bigger impact on the world than clay.
And to answer your question of why I have not recited Shahada. Everything I've said so far makes Allah sound pretty evil and don't get me started on Noah's Flood. The Quran mentions "waves the size of mountains" in 11:42. There is not enough water to flood the Earth.
And, another things, Allah is admitted that it made a mistake by doing the flood. I'll say it again: Allah did not have to create Satan. The flood happened because Allah gave Satan power. So all of those people that Allah had die needlessly in the flood died because Allah thought creating Satan was a good idea.
Allah did a pretty bad job at guiding at Noah's contemporaries. But there wouldn't have been enough room on the ark for every single person even if Allah had guided them. How do you fit millions of people on a boat?
Honestly, this all sounds like Allah is playing some kind of sick video game. We are the game characters and it's like the Sims game. Allah has a lot of fun making us suffer.
Not only that, our universe has no need for a creator. People try to define Allah into existence when there really is no need to. Our universe is not perfectly designed and is in fact a very dangerous place. Have you seen what it can do?
The idea of multiple universes is gaining traction. The more we learn as a species the more insignificant we become. First it was the Earth is the middle of the universe, then we found out that was silly. Then it was our galaxy is the only one and now we know there are more galaxies than people on the entire Earth, more stars than grains of the sand on the Earth, and probably even more universes than that. Each galaxy has billions to trillions of stars, and most stars, we now know, have multiple plants orbiting them.
Really does seem terribly wasteful of Allah. If the Earth was the only planet then you might have a point of our universe being perfectly designed. But we already know there are more stars in our universe than grains of sand on the Earth. With so many star systems, the fact is often stranger than the fiction. There are planets that have exceeded even our wildest expectations.
Quote:Allah is All-Seeing, All-Knowing and has dominion over ALL things this includes Hellfire.
So if Allah knows the suffering of all of people the hellfire, some of which will be good people, then why doesn't Allah get rid of the hellfire? It seems to me Allah enjoys doing battle with Satan because Allah doesn't mind seeing people in the hellfire. Allah created Satan knowing that Satan would refuse to bow to Adam. And, I'll say it again, Satan is objectively better than Adam.
Quote:These were Persians who were near Arabia and the Middle East. So many of their cultures and lifestyles (aside from religion and worship), had similarities with Islam.
The point is they came first. When the Israelites went to Babylon they copied stories like the Epic of Gilgamesh and adapted them to their culture to create the story of Noah for example. Zoroaster came before even Judaism, and we see the influence his religion has had on religions that came after his.
Quote:Well Prophet Muhammad pbuh was 40 years old when he first received the revelation from Angel Gabriel
To focus on that is to miss the point. Later thirties, early forties. A few years don't matter too much. The point is, Zoroaster was born into a wealth family, but he gave that up in order to upset the system. Like Muhammad, he was offered lots of nice things, if only he would stop preaching strict monotheism. But the angel kept coming to Zoroaster, and he kept on preaching strict monotheism even though it put his life in danger.
Another similarity we see is that in Zoroaster's religion, god had 101 names. That's only two more than Allah. And quite a number of the names are similar to those of Allah. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/101_Names_of_God
So to recap:
1. Zoroastrians have very similar creation story; the Evil Spirit, like Ibilis, refuse to praise man and this is why there is suffering.
2. The have 101 names for god, Allah has 99
3. Zoroaster preached a strict monotheism which upset those in power, like Muhammad.
4. Zoroaster received his revelations gradually from an angel of god, like Muhammad
5. Zoroastrians wash before pray, and this like Wudu
6. Zoroastrians are required to pray five times each day.
7. Zoroastrians are encouraged to wear white when they go to the temple to pray, like how the people are encourage to wear white for the Friday Prayer in the Mosque.
Come on, that's more than just a coincidence. The Arabs copied Zoroaster, just like the ancient people of Israel did. The Quran is not unique.
RE: Why is Allah holding Iblis to a different standard than the other Jinn?
June 5, 2016 at 10:22 am (This post was last modified: June 5, 2016 at 10:23 am by WinterHold.)
[quote pid='1293470' dateline='1465122643']
MrNoMorePropaganda
Quote:Answer:Allah gave Satan free-will to disobey. When he disobeyed Allah, Allah evicted him from Paradise. This made Satan extremely upset so he promised to lead the sons of Adam astray, thinking he was threatening Allah in a way. So Allah tells him "You and anyone who follows your lead I will certainly fill Hell with. But I assure you, you will only lead astray those whom I chose not to guide, for those whom I guide none can lead them astray" '
So what you're saying is we are paying the price because Allah created Satan when there clearly was no need to. Allah, the all-knowing (Al-ʿAlim, one of the ninety-nine names of Allah), knew Satan would lead the sons of Adam astray. Yes, the Quran has several verses saying something to the effect of "Allah guides whom he wills".
If the the case that people are guided by Allah, why are you on Atheist Forums? If Allah guides people then you have no business doing Dawah because Allah would guide these people without you telling them about Allah. It's like those people who protest draw Muhammad events. They know, really, that Allah won't do a Quran 13:13 on the people drawing Muhammad so they have to do the work of Allah for Allah.
Quote:The reason Satan (Iblis) didn't bow to Adam pbuh was because of his pride and arrogance.
And why did Satan have pride and arrogance? The answer is because Allah did not create him humble. Allah didn't have to create Satan.
Quote:All-Knowing Lord Allah says, I know I'm better than Adam
But Satan is better than Adam. Adam is not supernatural. Satan is objectively more powerful than Adam. If I could chose between clay and fire I'd chose fire without hesitation. Clay just sits there doing nothing. Fire is animated; it can grow - it's hot and it has a much bigger impact on the world than clay.
And to answer your question of why I have not recited Shahada. Everything I've said so far makes Allah sound pretty evil and don't get me started on Noah's Flood. The Quran mentions "waves the size of mountains" in 11:42. There is not enough water to flood the Earth.
And, another things, Allah is admitted that it made a mistake by doing the flood. I'll say it again: Allah did not have to create Satan. The flood happened because Allah gave Satan power. So all of those people that Allah had die needlessly in the flood died because Allah thought creating Satan was a good idea.
Allah did a pretty bad job at guiding at Noah's contemporaries. But there wouldn't have been enough room on the ark for every single person even if Allah had guided them. How do you fit millions of people on a boat?
Honestly, this all sounds like Allah is playing some kind of sick video game. We are the game characters and it's like the Sims game. Allah has a lot of fun making us suffer.
Not only that, our universe has no need for a creator. People try to define Allah into existence when there really is no need to. Our universe is not perfectly designed and is in fact a very dangerous place. Have you seen what it can do?
The idea of multiple universes is gaining traction. The more we learn as a species the more insignificant we become. First it was the Earth is the middle of the universe, then we found out that was silly. Then it was our galaxy is the only one and now we know there are more galaxies than people on the entire Earth, more stars than grains of the sand on the Earth, and probably even more universes than that. Each galaxy has billions to trillions of stars, and most stars, we now know, have multiple plants orbiting them.
Really does seem terribly wasteful of Allah. If the Earth was the only planet then you might have a point of our universe being perfectly designed. But we already know there are more stars in our universe than grains of sand on the Earth. With so many star systems, the fact is often stranger than the fiction. There are planets that have exceeded even our wildest expectations.
Quote:Allah is All-Seeing, All-Knowing and has dominion over ALL things this includes Hellfire.
So if Allah knows the suffering of all of people the hellfire, some of which will be good people, then why doesn't Allah get rid of the hellfire? It seems to me Allah enjoys doing battle with Satan because Allah doesn't mind seeing people in the hellfire. Allah created Satan knowing that Satan would refuse to bow to Adam. And, I'll say it again, Satan is objectively better than Adam.
Quote:These were Persians who were near Arabia and the Middle East. So many of their cultures and lifestyles (aside from religion and worship), had similarities with Islam.
The point is they came first. When the Israelites went to Babylon they copied stories like the Epic of Gilgamesh and adapted them to their culture to create the story of Noah for example. Zoroaster came before even Judaism, and we see the influence his religion has had on religions that came after his.
Quote:Well Prophet Muhammad pbuh was 40 years old when he first received the revelation from Angel Gabriel
To focus on that is to miss the point. Later thirties, early forties. A few years don't matter too much. The point is, Zoroaster was born into a wealth family, but he gave that up in order to upset the system. Like Muhammad, he was offered lots of nice things, if only he would stop preaching strict monotheism. But the angel kept coming to Zoroaster, and he kept on preaching strict monotheism even though it put his life in danger.
Another similarity we see is that in Zoroaster's religion, god had 101 names. That's only two more than Allah. And quite a number of the names are similar to those of Allah. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/101_Names_of_God
So to recap:
1. Zoroastrians have very similar creation story; the Evil Spirit, like Ibilis, refuse to praise man and this is why there is suffering.
2. The have 101 names for god, Allah has 99
3. Zoroaster preached a strict monotheism which upset those in power, like Muhammad.
4. Zoroaster received his revelations gradually from an angel of god, like Muhammad
5. Zoroastrians wash before pray, and this like Wudu
6. Zoroastrians are required to pray five times each day.
7. Zoroastrians are encouraged to wear white when they go to the temple to pray, like how the people are encourage to wear white for the Friday Prayer in the Mosque.
Come on, that's more than just a coincidence. The Arabs copied Zoroaster, just like the ancient people of Israel did. The Quran is not unique.
[/quote]
I'm thinking about this; I have quite a different opinion, I don't think angles are made out of light though, that's a Hadith after all.
Going to post later, totally out of mood, mental strength; so ..
But wanted to thank you for this comment; it's a goldmine !
I discussed Zoroastrian traditions with you once, but I need to go read more about them.
Quote:The prayers mentioned by name in the Quran are: 1- Salat Al-Fajr (Dawn Prayer)24:58 2- Salat Al-Isha (Night Prayer)24:58 3- Al-Salat Al-Wusta (The Middle Prayer) 2:238. However, 99% of all Muslims in the world claim that God decreed 5 daily prayers.
Their 5 salat are: Fajr - Zhohr - Asr - Maghrib - Isha.
They changed the name of the Salat Al-Wusta (The Middle Prayer) to Salat Al-Zhohr, and they added 2 salat which are the Asr and Maghrib.
Salah has been corrupted by people. They shouldn't pray five times a day like the Zoroastrians do. But why do they do this? The article poses some interesting questions.
..
