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RE: A question for those who believe truth is not absolute
June 5, 2016 at 1:46 pm
(June 5, 2016 at 11:05 am)IATIA Wrote: The book is a fact. The table is a fact. Tomorrow the book will still be a book and the table will still be a table. The book is on the table is true. If I move the book to a chair, it is no longer true that the book is on the table, but it is still a fact that the book is a book and the table is a table. Facts are unchanging, truths are relative and subjective.
The problem you are having with this your usage of the word fact. A fact is a property, a description of knowledge, "what is the case". The book nor the table are facts--they are objects. Declaring a statement as fact is the same as declaring it to be true. So your conclusion "facts are unchanging, truths are relative and subjective" is a contradiction.
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RE: A question for those who believe truth is not absolute
June 5, 2016 at 2:02 pm
(June 5, 2016 at 1:46 pm)SteveII Wrote: (June 5, 2016 at 11:05 am)IATIA Wrote: The book is a fact. The table is a fact. Tomorrow the book will still be a book and the table will still be a table. The book is on the table is true. If I move the book to a chair, it is no longer true that the book is on the table, but it is still a fact that the book is a book and the table is a table. Facts are unchanging, truths are relative and subjective.
The problem you are having with this your usage of the word fact. A fact is a property, a description of knowledge, "what is the case". The book nor the table are facts--they are objects. Declaring a statement as fact is the same as declaring it to be true. So your conclusion "facts are unchanging, truths are relative and subjective" is a contradiction.
A fact is something that has really occurred or is actually the case.
Truth is most often used to mean being in accord with fact or reality
You make people miserable and there's nothing they can do about it, just like god.
-- Homer Simpson
God has no place within these walls, just as facts have no place within organized religion.
-- Superintendent Chalmers
Science is like a blabbermouth who ruins a movie by telling you how it ends. There are some things we don't want to know. Important things.
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RE: A question for those who believe truth is not absolute
June 5, 2016 at 2:47 pm
(This post was last modified: June 5, 2016 at 3:25 pm by SteveII.
Edit Reason: added clarification
)
(June 5, 2016 at 2:02 pm)IATIA Wrote: (June 5, 2016 at 1:46 pm)SteveII Wrote: The problem you are having with this your usage of the word fact. A fact is a property, a description of knowledge, "what is the case". The book nor the table are facts--they are objects. Declaring a statement as fact is the same as declaring it to be true. So your conclusion "facts are unchanging, truths are relative and subjective" is a contradiction.
A fact is something that has really occurred or is actually the case.
Truth is most often used to mean being in accord with fact or reality
Agreed. So if truth is "in accord with fact" they stand or fall together.
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RE: A question for those who believe truth is not absolute
June 5, 2016 at 3:19 pm
(June 5, 2016 at 1:44 pm)mh.brewer Wrote: (June 5, 2016 at 1:33 pm)SteveII Wrote: I don't quite know what your point about the sun rising is. Are you trying to deliberately fine an example where the meaning of the verb is not really the meaning we ascribe to the sun's movement? If so, you are merely pointing out word choices and are not proving any point about whether a truth is relative or absolute. The sun does not rise, never has and never will. It does not change anything if you say and I understand what you mean that the sun will rise tomorrow.
Regarding the book, "on" has a definition. The book being on the table is either true or not. No subjectivity. If you start talking about "negative ions" "gravity" and other analysis of the word "on", you are merely defining the word. The burden of defining all the words in every sentence we say or write would become unbearable--that's why we came up with the word on to represent that concept.
You didn't like "always" so I eliminated it. Now you don't like "rises". For anyone that would have considered either sentence a "truth" (and I know some) by your own comments you have shown that "truth" can be subjective and relative.
So, there ya go. Truth is subjective and relative based on conditional definition(s).
I'm not sure I understand why you resist. Is the concept of subjective truth life altering for you?
We don't have to agree, but by doing so that makes truth subjective.
We all know people who don't or don't care to know the the philosophical distinctions. I thought a thread discussing the idea of absolute truth is a good place to make distinctions.
BTW, nothing I said supports a relativistic view about the truth of a statement or proposition. Defining a word correctly in no way makes the truth of a statement conditional nor subjective. If I am not precise in my reply, how long do you think it will take for one of the many people who enjoy the drive-by snipes to fill a page?
It seems you are confusing imprecision of language with the question whether truth is subjective. If you think the truth of a statement is subjective, you should be able to give an example and explain why it is subjective.
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RE: A question for those who believe truth is not absolute
June 5, 2016 at 3:30 pm
I'm kind of burning out on the subject. Doubt we ever come to an agreement.
Not to snipe but, does your position have anything to do with the truth statement in the bible, john14:6? Or any other biblical truth statement?
Being told you're delusional does not necessarily mean you're mental.
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RE: A question for those who believe truth is not absolute
June 5, 2016 at 6:18 pm
(June 5, 2016 at 3:30 pm)mh.brewer Wrote: I'm kind of burning out on the subject. Doubt we ever come to an agreement.
Not to snipe but, does your position have anything to do with the truth statement in the bible, john14:6? Or any other biblical truth statement?
No. Two things made me look up the subject. I was listening to a podcast seminar series: https://podcasts.ox.ac.uk/series/philosophy-beginners and the topic came up. Secondly I ran across mention of Correspondence Theory in an article I read (which I had to look up). I saw this thread topic, did some background reading before I posted. That's what I do. I learn, I post, I learn the rebuttals, I post.
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RE: A question for those who believe truth is not absolute
June 6, 2016 at 3:30 am
(June 5, 2016 at 2:02 pm)IATIA Wrote: (June 5, 2016 at 1:46 pm)SteveII Wrote: The problem you are having with this your usage of the word fact. A fact is a property, a description of knowledge, "what is the case". The book nor the table are facts--they are objects. Declaring a statement as fact is the same as declaring it to be true. So your conclusion "facts are unchanging, truths are relative and subjective" is a contradiction.
A fact is something that has really occurred or is actually the case.
Truth is most often used to mean being in accord with fact or reality
Distinction without a difference.
A [fact] is something that has [truly] occurred or is [truly] the case.
Compared to:
A [truth] is something that has [factually] occurred or is [factually] the case
Or the other statement:
[Truth] is most often used to mean being in accord with [fact] or [factuality]
Compare
[Fact] is most often used to mean being in accord with [truth] or [truthfulness]
A distinction is being attempted when there is no difference. What you might mean is:
Fact = Objective/absolute Truth (the truth about the thing in question)
Subjective truth = the apparent truth about the thing in question in the mind of the subject
Truth = how well the subjective truth apparent to the subject matches the fact.
And if that is the case, you are inventing new words for already well understood concepts.
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RE: A question for those who believe truth is not absolute
June 13, 2016 at 8:14 pm
(This post was last modified: June 13, 2016 at 9:00 pm by Thomas Kelly252525.)
It may be thought that comparisons are in the world and to judge that true you must be unbiased.
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RE: A question for those who believe truth is not absolute
July 11, 2016 at 10:06 pm
Truth is absolute. that is not stipulable. The truth is subjective to circumstance. But the Truth itself, is objective. That is an undebatable topic.
everyone agrees.
I should bookmark this conversation and review your comments later.
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RE: A question for those who believe truth is not absolute
July 12, 2016 at 1:00 am
(July 11, 2016 at 10:06 pm)Complidudaaldo Wrote: Truth is absolute. that is not stipulable. The truth is subjective to circumstance. But the Truth itself, is objective. That is an undebatable topic.
everyone agrees.
I should bookmark this conversation and review your comments later.
Um. . . you're wrong in everything you just said.
First of all, "truth" is a word, and you haven't defined it. Nor, if it's an absolute truth to which we do not have access, would you ever know IF you were able to define it. So what's left? People's ideas, and their hunch that they represent objective reality.
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