Take some fucking responsibility!

[account_inactive]

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[Thumpalumpacus]

We require children to be inoculated before they're admitted to schools, for the safety of the wider population. Do you also oppose that?

You seem to have missed the "As punishment" part, which is an important factor.  And you're honestly comparing vaccinating children to castrating rapists?  The health benefits of vaccinating kids are one of the most settled issues I can possibly think of.  Punishment of rapists by castration doesn't seem to serve as any sort of deterrent, and it's cruel and unusual punishment.

So forcibly making changes to someone's body is okay if it isn't punishment? At that point, we have to examine whether the role of justice is to reform or to remonstrate. I'd prefer reform. I don't know that that is possible with sex offenders. I'm certainily against physical castration, because it cannot be undone. I have to look into the long-term effects of chemical castration before I can lay out an informed opinion. I don't know that it would be cruel.

I wasn't comparing the two actions themselves, either, but rather digging at the principle of forcible changes. I'm surprised I have to spell that out.

Both forcible changes are for the health of society at large. Outside of moral stance (which is of course subjective), what differences are there?

[Thumpalumpacus]

We require drunk drivers to abstain from alcohol, which also changes the body chemically.

What? No we don't, we just take away their license or put them in jail.  And again, the chemical changes resulting from whatever withdrawal they might experience is not the punishment.  The chemical changes that one experiences from being castrated is the punishment.

Actually, it is almost always a condition of their probation that they not drink. And the point you're eliding is that the government is already dictating a change in body-chemistry ... no matter the reasoning.

As for your emphasis on punishment, what good do you think is served to society by punishing criminals as opposed to rehabilitating them? I don't know that the latter is possible with sex-offenders, but I'm deeply uncomfortable with the idea of a justice system playing to the gallery.

[Thumpalumpacus]

We require children to be inoculated before they're admitted to schools, for the safety of the wider population. Do you also oppose that?

There's a very big difference between the two and if you reflect on it, I'm sure you notice.

Maybe it's because I'm coming from a part of the world where eugenics were all the rage for a pretty long period in time, but I'm certainly opposed to inflict irreversible damage to someone else's body.

A lesser known fact, Switzerland made what they considered imbeciles or irresponsible (mostly women) infertile up until the late 70ies. Against their will.

See my responses above. My argument is not against inoculations being required, but rather asking, where is the line of what is and isn't unusual?

As I've made plain above, I in no way support the idea of physical castration. I won't address that point again.

[Thumpalumpacus]

What a terrible and irrelevant argument.  Yes, honestly if I went through that I would probably react pretty emotionally.  However, as I said before, we don't have (and shouldn't have) a legal system based on emotional responses to situations.  

"What if you were locked up with 1000 rapists?" Yeesh.

Yet your responses to me have leaned heavily on punishment. What is that if not an emotional response?

[Thumpalumpacus]

We require drunk drivers to abstain from alcohol, which also changes the body chemically.

They can choose to go to jail instead. I mean....they won't be getting alcohol there either.

I'd say there's a huge difference between a chemical alteration as a result of stopping doing something vs a chemical alteration as a result of forcing something to be done.

I don't know if you're playing devils advocate here. I always have a really hard time imagining there are people who really believe that physically harming someone is ever an acceptable form of punishment.

I'm really not playing Devil's advocate here. I don't know where I stand on the issue and seek rational explanation. Part of me thinks, if chemical castration has no long-term effects, I'm fine with it, but another part of me thinks that taking out a person's sexuality is pretty drastic. This is why my posting in this thread has waffled so much.

I'm trying to reason my way through the weed-patch, and it ain't easy.

[Losty]

... honestly WOG deserves every shred of abuse he gets on the forums.

He truly is a despicable cunt. Even if he is a troll.

Heh, thank you.

I'm not necessarily disagreeing but I don't think you should let him bother you. He only says mean things because he likes to ruffle feathers. I don't know if that makes him a bad person. I think a lot people are naive enough to believe that the things they say on the internet can't really hurt anyone. He is a jerk, but just don't let him get to you.

[Edwardo Piet]

Guys, I honestly don't think WOG misunderstands or is uninformed. He only said that because he's a jerk and he likes to jerk off to the emotional responses he gets. He's not worth the time.

You have the biggest heart. Out of everyone I know. You're far more understanding than any of us on the forum probably could be.

I wholeheartedly agree.

[FatAndFaithless]

What a terrible and irrelevant argument.  Yes, honestly if I went through that I would probably react pretty emotionally.  However, as I said before, we don't have (and shouldn't have) a legal system based on emotional responses to situations.  

"What if you were locked up with 1000 rapists?" Yeesh.

Yet your responses to me have leaned heavily on punishment. What is that if not an emotional response?

I honestly have no idea where you're going with this, Thump.  I also don't see why my position is so hard to understand.  I'm focusing on punishment because that is what the courts sentence a criminal for, in our current justice system; they are enforceable penalties for committing a crime.  I've explicitly stated multiple times that this sentencing of punishment should NOT be emotional, as best as we can make it anyway.  I've also literally agreed that if I experienced something like this personally, that I would be extremely emotional, and would very likely very much want the people who did that to me to be sentenced to death.  But hey, as I said, we don't make laws and sentencing based on the emotional response of the victims, because that's a can of worms on a slippery slope.

Is forcing someone to modify their body okay if it's not punishment? In some circumstances, yes, like mandatory vaccinations.  

I've ALSO said multiple times in this thread that I don't believe that prisons should be about punishment, and that they should be about rehabilitation.  WHICH IS WHY I'M AGAIN CASTRATION AND THE DEATH PENALTY IN THE FIRST PLACE.  You literally just asked me "what good do you think is served to society by punishing criminals as opposed to rehabilitating them?"  I've been saying that exact same freaking thing.  That's why I'm against these punishments.

It's a complicated issue, but I've clearly and explicitly said things that have already answered your objections, and it seems like you're implying that I am advocating for things which I am very obviously against.

[Thumpalumpacus]

What the fuck? People come up with these ridiculous scenarios. What is the point of this? I've been raped. A lot of times. Maybe a thousand maybe not. I was married to a guy who raped me pretty frequently over several years until I finally got out of there. Of course there's a small part of me that wouldn't be sad for him if someone held him down and let a honey badger rip his dick off. But it'd still be morally wrong. I'm still against chemical castration and it's still cruel and unusual IMO.

Having been raped makes me feel even more against it.

 Of course if you had been locked up in a dungeon all that time you had no choice.  But if you were free to go about your daily activities and continually returned to the "rapist" of your own free will I'm not buying your story.  If you've been raped that many times then being raped is your favorite way of having sex.

You're being a cunt. Stop it.

If you can.