1 John 4:1 compared to The No True Scotsman Fallacy and sophisms

[Mister Agenda]

It is unwise to think anything is logical because it is popular (ad populum fallacy). It is also unwise to think something is illogical because it is popular.

Mister Agenda,

I'm not sure what you were thinking, maybe you just wanted to show your understanding of this.

I haven't been thinking if popular then logical or if popular then illogical.

What do you think about the subject of the thread ? Do you think it's right to use The No True Scotsman Fallacy against Christians if one Christian says that another person called a Christian, is not a Christian, if you have thoughts of 1 John 4:1 ?

You've provided no context, so we're just having a conversation with each other. I don't think much of the thread, the OP seems to be playing some kind of game. When you're actually ready to contribute your own thoughts, please feel free to jump in.

I've explained in detail what I think about a Christian saying another person called a Christian is not a Christian elsewhere.

[Thomas Kelly252525]

Is it wise to think popular logic is logical ?

We may discuss.

--True logic has nothing to do with popularity. it can be popular and at the same time a logical conclusion can be shunned.

Have you got a definition of true logic ?

So to answer your question yes it is wise, if the conclusion (popular or not) is logical.

I was testing you.

--What does this have to do with discerning a false PROPHET (not christian as you later point out) and a NTS fallacy?

Are you trying to defeat the logical fallacy? If so that is easily done in that Their are rules concerning what qualifies and disqualifies one as being a 'true Christian.' Where as their are no rules (aside from citizenship) of what qualifies a 'true scotsman.' The Fallacy points to a personal judgement as being the only qualifier as to who is and is not a scotsman, while a 'true christian' has to meet certain criteria as outlined in scripture.--

Now that said, if you are not 'judging a prophet' by the guidlines set forth by scripture then you are indeed committing a no true Scotsman fallacy.
--

What may you think proves that "test the spirits" in 1 John 4:1 means only prophets ? 

Drich, you may look at my answers above.

[Drich]

Just saying, "someone isn't a Christian," isn't exactly committing the NTS fallacy though, Thomas.  It's used in refutation to evidence supporting an argument.  You are going to have to give me a more specific example than what you just presented.

LadyForCamus,

I was testing you.  Maybe you've learnt something new from it.  I don't do it with bad will.

To help, you may think of a Christian saying that another person called a Christian, is not Christian and an atheist thinking they can use The No True Scotsman Fallacy to show how it's wrong of a Christian to say such things.

But that has nothing to do with 1 john4:1. That passage is about testing prophets, not fellow Christians.

[Drich]

--True logic has nothing to do with popularity. it can be popular and at the same time a logical conclusion can be shunned.

Have you got a definition of true logic ?

So to answer your question yes it is wise, if the conclusion (popular or not) is logical.

I was testing you.

--What does this have to do with discerning a false PROPHET (not christian as you later point out) and a NTS fallacy?

Are you trying to defeat the logical fallacy? If so that is easily done in that Their are rules concerning what qualifies and disqualifies one as being a 'true Christian.' Where as their are no rules (aside from citizenship) of what qualifies a 'true scotsman.' The Fallacy points to a personal judgement as being the only qualifier as to who is and is not a scotsman, while a 'true christian' has to meet certain criteria as outlined in scripture.--

Now that said, if you are not 'judging a prophet' by the guidlines set forth by scripture then you are indeed committing a no true Scotsman fallacy.
--

What may you think proves that "test the spirits" in 1 John 4:1 means only prophets ? 

Drich, you may look at my answers above.

I did, and corrected the topical ones... Do you want me to correct all of them?

[Alex K]

The real question is, will Thomas Kelly252525 pass the Turing test?

[BrianSoddingBoru4]

Boru,


Do you think that every person who tells you they are a Christian is really a Christian ?

Do you think 1 John 4:1 talks about testing the spirits to see if they are really from God ?

Question #1:  Since NTS is a valid fallacy, whether or not someone is a Christian isn't for me to judge (at least not on the basis of them saying so).

Question #2:  Yes.

But I think you misunderstand NTS.  It works like this:  Angus was born and reared in Aberdeen.  His mother was from Glasgow, his father from Edinburgh.  He wears a kilt, plays bagpipes, speaks fluent Gàidhlig, and is passionate to the point of distraction about Robert Burns.  But, since Angus takes sugar in his porridge - which no true Scotsman does - Angus isn't a true Scotsman.

With Christians, it would probably go something like: Thomas believes that Jesus of Nazareth is the son of God, was able to work miracles, was tried, crucified, died, rose, and ascended into Heaven.  Thomas also believes that Jesus is the Savior and Redeemer of mankind, and died for all of our sins.  However, Thomas disbelieves in the virgin birth.  Since no true Christian disbelieves this, Thomas is not a true Christian.

I'm still not getting how this applies to John's admonition to test spirits or prophets.

Boru

[Thomas Kelly252525]

Drich, you may look at my answers above.

I did, and corrected the topical ones... Do you want me to correct all of them?

Drich,

You may think "test the spirits" in 1 John 4:1 does not mean only prophets.  I have not seen in this thread any post from you which proves "test the spirits" means only prophets.  If I said you lied about making a post in this thread showing what you thought proved that "test the spirits" in 1 John 4:1 means only prophets, do you think that would be wise of me ? 

[Thomas Kelly252525]

Boru,


Do you think that every person who tells you they are a Christian is really a Christian ?

Do you think 1 John 4:1 talks about testing the spirits to see if they are really from God ?

--Question #1:  Since NTS is a valid fallacy, whether or not someone is a Christian isn't for me to judge (at least not on the basis of them saying so).--

You may agree that some people may call themselves a Christian and really not be one.

--Question #2:  Yes.--

Acknowledged.

--But I think you misunderstand NTS.  It works like this:  Angus was born and reared in Aberdeen.  His mother was from Glasgow, his father from Edinburgh.  He wears a kilt, plays bagpipes, speaks fluent Gàidhlig, and is passionate to the point of distraction about Robert Burns.  But, since Angus takes sugar in his porridge - which no true Scotsman does - Angus isn't a true Scotsman.--

What may you think proves that I misunderstand No True Scotsman Fallacy ? 

--With Christians, it would probably go something like: Thomas believes that Jesus of Nazareth is the son of God, was able to work miracles, was tried, crucified, died, rose, and ascended into Heaven.  Thomas also believes that Jesus is the Savior and Redeemer of mankind, and died for all of our sins.  However, Thomas disbelieves in the virgin birth.  Since no true Christian disbelieves this, Thomas is not a true Christian.

I'm still not getting how this applies to John's admonition to test spirits or prophets.--

Have you ever experienced an atheist use The No True Scotsman Fallacy to show what they think proves that a Christian should never say that another person called a Christian, is not a Christian ?

Boru, you may look at my answers above.

[KevinM1]

Thomas,

I think you need to describe what you are thinking more fully.   There seems to be more behind what your are trying to get at, but we can't know that.

RoadRunner79,

You may think how I started the thread was enough for a person with enough experience to realize what I was saying.


You may compare in an example below.

Christian says: That person who calls themself a Christian is not really a Christian.

Atheist says:  You are wrong to say that someone who calls themself Christian is not a Christian.

Christian says:  Have you ever looked at 1 John 4:1 ?

In my experience, it's more like:

Christian says: That person who calls themself a Christian is not really a Christian.
Atheist says: I don't really give a fuck.

[Jackalope]

I'll have whatever the OP is smoking.