Your lack of imagination is your defeat

[The Grand Nudger]

It won't bother you much when you're dead.  

[The Grand Nudger]

@This NDE business.  

What -about- an NDE account...if true (see, huge load off..no need to prove any particular), in whatever sense it is taken to be true, would suggest that mind is independent of brain?  In the sense that we percieve ourselves to be leaving our body?  I don;t need to get near death to have that experience...nor do I need to leave my body.  Creating projections, simulations, indirect models of sense data...is kind of what my mind/brain appears to be doing pretty much all the time. That I can place myself across the room, perceptually, isn't that much different from placing a chair across the room.

[Anomalocaris]

The part that is bugging me the most is that we won't be able to tell Rik "Told you so" when we all die.

Even if we could, it would stimulate about as much real mental process in him as it would in a pile of cow dung.

[Crossless2.0]

@This NDE business.  

What -about- an NDE account...if true (see, huge load off..no need to prove any particular), in whatever sense it is taken to be true, would suggest that mind is independent of brain?  In the sense that we percieve ourselves to be leaving our body?  I don;t need to get near death to have that experience...nor do I need to leave my body.  Creating projections, simulations, indirect models of sense data...is kind of what my mind/brain appears to be doing pretty much all the time.  That I can place myself across the room, perceptually, isn't that much different from placing a chair across the room.

In another of Rik's threads, I suggested he look into James Randi's account of his own out-of-body experience, thinking that it might stimulate Rik to reconsider his NDE hobby horse and his insistence that such unusual events 'prove' that consciousness is separate from the brain. Of course, that went unremarked. I can't say I'm surprised.

[Angrboda]

@This NDE business.  

What -about- an NDE account...if true (see, huge load off..no need to prove any particular), in whatever sense it is taken to be true, would suggest that mind is independent of brain?  In the sense that we percieve ourselves to be leaving our body?  I don;t need to get near death to have that experience...nor do I need to leave my body.  Creating projections, simulations, indirect models of sense data...is kind of what my mind/brain appears to be doing pretty much all the time.  That I can place myself across the room, perceptually, isn't that much different from placing a chair across the room.

http://iands.org/ndes/about-ndes/key-nde...ml?start=2

[Joods]

Why anyone is still giving this nutjob attention, I'll never understand.

Has anyone considered the fact that maybe, just maybe, he does this to push buttons with some people?

You know, sometimes when you stop feeding the trolls, they'll get hungry enough and leave to find another food source.

Same thing with bullies. If you ignore them long enough, they seek out another playground in which to find new victims.

LR is nothing more than a trolling bully and this thread is the perfect playground that he targets.
He mocks anyone who responds. And you all let him do it. I will never understand why. You are all better than this. It's time for this thread to die already.

[Angrboda]

I advised people to ignore him early on. It doesn't work. There's always fresh meat to be had. Meh.

[robvalue]

It's not really fair on us, because whatever we say, he can just call us dumb and declare victory.

[Little Rik]

Whoooooooo, that is incredible yog.
You are saying that in a forum is ok. for somebody to spout crap after crap but not for someone in particular.
You reach a new high of stupidity.  

Everybody is judged individually.  That other people speak crap doesn't lend any credence to your crap.  You're just making more excuses as to why you don't provide evidence.

Life is not easy yog especially for people that lock themselves in a corral of dogmas and prevent the reason to prevail.
Evidence eventually will come once we leave our physical body if of course you may believe that we can leave our physical body.
In the meantime is my opinion that we should go along with what make more sense and discard what doesn't.

What 'makes sense' to you doesn't make sense to the Christian.  What makes sense to the Christian doesn't make sense to the Tibetan Buddhist.  And around it goes.  Because 'makes sense' is a worthless standard which only endorses meaningless bias and unfounded beliefs.  That's why evidence is important.  It separates the wheat from the chaff.  You without any evidence are the chaff.  You should be discarded.  What 'makes sense' is as flexible as the imagination of the thinker.  There are hundreds of strands within Hinduism, all of which 'make sense' to their advocates.  That doesn't in the least incline us to believe they are true.  In the absence of evidence, the reasonable person withholds belief and remains agnostic about whatever theory or hypothesis is presented.  You'll note that consciousness being a product of the brain 'makes sense' to a lot of people.  On top of that, despite your complaining otherwise, there is evidence that the proposition is true.  Much more evidence than a handful of NDEs.  That it doesn't make sense to you is irrelevant.  Your free to remain agnostic on the question.  But jumping to another worldview without any evidence is simply irrational.

Just one example.
Atheists in general say that the consciousness is a product of the brain.
And they get stuck in this idea no matter what.
But consciousness is not something physical that can be killed along with energy.
But no, no matter what atheists made already their mind without exploring first the possibility that
their belief is unfounded.

Here is where I am talking about what make sense and what doesn't.
You see a dead body but you can not see a dead consciousness and yet you believe that the consciousness is dead without a rag of evidence.

Again you simply lie about things.  I've already provided evidence for the proposition that consciousness is a product of the brain which supports the idea that death is the end.  But this is irrelevant.  Here you are back at your tricks.  Making bare assertions about what is and is not.  Finding fault in the other person's belief but not providing evidence for the things you believe like karma and microvita and reincarnation.  This is nothing more than sleight of hand--you keep our attention focused on this so that we don't notice how little evidence for your own beliefs has been provided.  It's nothing but a cheap trick.

'Atheists in general' are divided about what exactly consciousness is.  They all have their individual views about what 'makes sense' and their ideas are no less sensible than yours.  Christians have ideas that make sense too.  As do Buddhists.  The wise course is to remain independent of those views which do not provide evidence for their views.  The handful of veridical NDEs are hard to explain and provide some meager support for the notion that consciousness is independent of the brain.  But that evidence is slight, and ambiguous--there are many views of consciousness that work with it that aren't your views.  Meanwhile, there is voluminous evidence from biology and medicine that the brain is directly involved in producing the mind.  (And none for the idea that automobiles have mind.)  Again, the question is the balance of evidence.  In that, your handful of unexplained NDEs don't count for much.

I would post the evidence again, but we know that is a distraction from you presenting any for your view.

Yog.  


I am late for work so in these few minutes I only will answer few of your objections.

1) Let us talk about what make sense.
You mention religions.
See the Hindus.
They say that the cow is holy on the basis that give a lot of milk.
Buffaloes give more milk than cows and yet they are not holy.
Here is where the sense goes terribly wrong.

Now take the muslims.
They say that animals must be killed facing the Mecca.
They reckon is good for the animal.
Now you tell me how can be good for the poor beast whether is killed facing the Mecca or no.

You see yog how the sense is wrong?

All people need in order to find out what is wrong or right is a little bit of intuition.
Nothing more, nothing special.

Atheists are in the same terrible corral of dogma.  

They reckon that something abstract as the consciousness die when the body die.
Even science tell us that is impossible to destroy energy but energy and consciousness
are the two sides of the same sheet so how can the consciousness die then?  

[The Grand Nudger]

Your consciousness doesn't appear to be "energy"...so the comments in that regard are uninformative. Let's assume it was, though. Your body is also "energy" - and it dies.