The real religion?

[SteveII]

Don't remember seeing a question. Do you a specific question?

Refer back to my previous posts. I won't bother spending the time to repeat myself if you are that lazy.

I did. You didn't ask a question. Also, I am not 14 and I don't have patience for those that act like they are. There are hundreds here just like you that aren't interested in a discussion and only want to see their sophomoric observations 'liked' by others that think on the same level.

[Jesster]

Refer back to my previous posts. I won't bother spending the time to repeat myself if you are that lazy.

I did. You didn't ask a question. Also, I am not 14 and I don't have patience for those that act like they are. There are hundreds here just like you that aren't interested in a discussion and only want to see their sophomoric observations 'liked' by others that think on the same level.

Straw man. I won't bother with that part.

I responded to your claims with alternate evidence. If you don't accept it, please let us know. Otherwise it will remain standing against your posts.

For quick reference, refer back to the link I posted before.

[Edwardo Piet]

There are hundreds here just like you that aren't interested in a discussion and only want to see their sophomoric observations 'liked' by others that think on the same level.

The whole point is your assertions are as ludicrous as mine. You claimed the NT is evidence for God and acted like that was obvious. That is fucking ridiculous. Not only is it NOT evidence but it CAN'T be evidence.

So anyway, where was I:



Makes as much sense as your stupid shit.

[SteveII]

I did. You didn't ask a question. Also, I am not 14 and I don't have patience for those that act like they are. There are hundreds here just like you that aren't interested in a discussion and only want to see their sophomoric observations 'liked' by others that think on the same level.

Straw man. I won't bother with that part.

I responded to your claims with alternate evidence. If you don't accept it, please let us know. Otherwise it will remain standing against your posts.

For quick reference, refer back to the link I posted before.

That's not how it works. I don't argue against links (I don't know anyone here who will). Put it into your own words ask me a question and I will respond.

[LadyForCamus]

Don't worry guys! Steve isn't a Christian anymore anyway! He just said he isn't claiming that god exists, and he isn't claiming that people have a personal relationship with him.

Before you say dishonest shit like that again Steve, just remember:

Jesus is always watching you.

[Jesster]

Straw man. I won't bother with that part.

I responded to your claims with alternate evidence. If you don't accept it, please let us know. Otherwise it will remain standing against your posts.

For quick reference, refer back to the link I posted before.

That's not how it works. I don't argue against links (I don't know anyone here who will). Put it into your own words ask me a question and I will respond.

Right. Because the laziest person gets to make the rules. That's also not how it works.

You made a claim that there are benefits from reading the NT. I am claiming the opposite. Here's that link again. Read it and respond properly or forfeit your argument.

http://skepticsannotatedbible.com/cruelty/nt_list.html

[Angrboda]

Ok, I'm tired of this non-stop nattering about a 'personal relationship with God'. Since you have one, tell me something about this close personal friend that I can't learn about by reading the Bible.

Why would there be something that you cannot learn from the Bible? The Bible describes the benefits. You seem to be implying that a new divine revelation should be expected with new data. You can see below that the content of that relationship is perspective, character changing, peace, hope etc. (all internal looking) and not one of a source of new data. A Christians experience will differ in specifics but generally you get the following. 

"Do not be anxious about anything, but in every situation, by prayer and petition, with thanksgiving, present your requests to God. And the peace of God, which transcends all understanding, will guard your hearts and your minds in Christ Jesus." Phillippians 4:6-7

"Humble yourselves, therefore, under God's mighty hand, that he may lift you up in due time. Cast all your anxiety on him because he cares for you." 1 Peter 5:6-7

"Peace I leave with you; my peace I give you. I do not give to you as the world gives. Do not let your hearts be troubled and do not be afraid." John 14:27

"The righteous cry out and the Lord hears them; he delivers them from all their troubles. The Lord is close to the broken-hearted and saves those who are crushed in spirit. The righteous person may have many troubles, but the Lord delivers him from them all." Psalm 34:17-19

"But those who hope in the Lord will renew their strength. They will soar on the wings like eagles; they will run and not grow weary, they will walk and not be faint." Isaiah 40:31

"Be strong and courageous. Do not be afraid or terrified because of them, for the Lord your God goes with you; he will never leave you nor forsake you." Deuteronomy 31:6

"Surely the righteous will never be shaken; they will be remembered for ever. They will have no fear of bad news; their hearts are steadfast, trusting in the Lord. Their hearts are secure, they will have no fear; in the end they will look in triumph on their foes." Psalm 112:6-8

"For the Spirit God gave us does not make us timid, but gives us power, love and self-discipline." 2 Timothy 1:7

Remembering the Lord loves and cares for you.

"What, then, shall we say in response to these things? If God is for us, who can be against us? He who did not spare his own Son, but gave him up for us all — how will he not also, along with him, graciously give us all things?" Romans 8:31-32

"Trust in the Lord with all your heart and lean not on your own understanding; in all your ways submit to him, and he will make your paths straight." Proverbs 3:5-6

"And we know that in all things God works for the good of those who love Him, who have been called according to his purpose." Romans 8:28

"So do not fear, for I am with you; do not be dismayed, for I am your God. I will strengthen you and help you; I will uphold you with my righteous right hand." Isaiah 41:10

"But God demonstrates his own love for us in this: while we were still sinners, Christ died for us." Romans 5:8

"But you, Lord, are a compassionate and gracious God, slow to anger, abounding in love and faithfulness." Psalm 86:15

"For I am convinced that neither death nor life, neither angels nor demons, neither the present nor the future, nor any powers, neither height nor depth, nor anything else in creation, will be able to separate us from the love of God that is in Christ Jesus our Lord." Romans 8:38-39

All you are doing is claiming that they are different people. If they really are different people then there should be evidence that they have changed. But you don't have that evidence. So you just keep repeating the claim. Repeating the claim doesn't make it true.

Moreover, this is only evidence that different people respond to the same conditioning in similar ways. It isn't evidence that the underlying cause lies outside themselves. Have you heard of the 'god center' in the brain? It appears that we are pre-wired to have religious experiences. If that is so, then all those experiences are evidence for is that pre-wiring, not of the religious experience itself. How do you know these 'billion' people aren't simply experiencing the same fundamental neural events having nothing to do with an actual religious experience. I've heard Buddhists claim that their experience of meditation has changed their lives as well. Same experience, different interpretation. You're holding up the feelings and claiming that they are evidence of a particular interpretation. They're not. They're just evidence of common feelings. Despite your claims that Christianity is unique, these same feelings pop up in all sorts of different religions. So what we have are nothing but evidence of the feelings, which isn't unique to Christianity.

[SteveII]

The question of whether we should believe someone who says they have a relationship with God is not a metaphysical claim either. You still are failing to answer the simple question of why we shouldn't take a billion people's word for it that they have a relationship with God and therefore evidence for God? I have shown that your last answer "because it can't be scientifically proven" was not a good answer. If your answer is now something like: there is no other evidence for God, then you reasoning is circular. While I think there is certainly other evidence for God, it only serves to strengthen the hypothesis that if a billion people have a relationship with God, then God exists but is not necessary for it. 

I did not make the claim 'God exists, and people experience a personal relationship with him.' I have asked over and over why if a billion people claim to have a relationship with God, why is that not evidence for God? Big difference. I have no claim to defend because I do not have any premises in dispute. You continue to claim that one does not follow from the other yet I still have yet to get a good answer to support your claim. 

This is a different subject that I address in another post.

You are talking yourself in circles and playing a poorly-disguised semantics game.  I'm not going to waste the rest of the day repeating myself to you 100 different ways.  We have patiently explained to you over and over why testimonials are no good.  There is nothing left to say except...

...you AREN'T claiming a God exists and that people experience a personal relationship with him?  Good, then it looks like we are on the same page.  I'm glad you finally came to your senses.   Have a nice day!  [emoji106]

Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

Sorry that we are not understanding each other. I enjoyed the discussion. Have a good weekend.

[Angrboda]

This is pure hogwash.  All he's done is repackage the extraordinary claims maxim to make it sound like it supports his position.  It's nothing more than semantic tom foolery.  'Probability theorists' have long recognized that this is a problem of Type I statistical error, not Type II, as Craig implies.  When dealing with extraordinary claims it is perfectly reasonable to demand greater confidence intervals in the result.  That's all it says, and it's a well respected principle of science.  That's why you have different confidence intervals in the physical sciences than in the medical sciences.  That Craig wants to beg out of standard scientific principles is understandable, but hardly acceptable.

And how should we weigh the probability of event happening without a supernatural cause? What is the probability of a crippled man walking from natural causes at the precise time Jesus commanded him to walk? Are you saying that is not a factor?

Or perhaps it's evidence of trickery, or it's evidence that legends develop and are mistaken for history. What does this have to do with whether extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence? We've discussed this example before, so I can only assume it's part of your standard toolkit to introduce it. Our agreement from that last discussion was that people are gullible, with my clear implication that this included the authors of the bible. However, if someone were to go into a hospital and command a confirmed cripple to walk, and he did, that would be extraordinary evidence itself, so I don't see what your point is. What it would be evidence of is another matter. How does any of this show that extraordinary claims do not require extraordinary evidence?

[Jesster]

As I thought. Steve gets a bunch of direct quotes from the NT that are not only not beneficial, but harmful, and he folds. Read the whole thing next time like I have. If used literally instead of twisting it around to fit your needs, it can only lead to immorality.