And in case he tries anything funny...

Steve.

(August 12, 2016 at 9:47 am)Crossless1 Wrote: Ok, I'm tired of this non-stop nattering about a 'personal relationship with God'. Since you have one, tell me something about this close personal friend that I can't learn about by reading the Bible.

Why would there be something that you cannot learn from the Bible? The Bible describes the benefits. You seem to be implying that a new divine revelation should be expected with new data. You can see below that the content of that relationship is perspective, character changing, peace, hope etc. (all internal looking) and not one of a source of new data. A Christians experience will differ in specifics but generally you get the following. 

"Do not be anxious about anything, but in every situation, by prayer and petition, with thanksgiving, present your requests to God. And the peace of God, which transcends all understanding, will guard your hearts and your minds in Christ Jesus." Phillippians 4:6-7

"Humble yourselves, therefore, under God's mighty hand, that he may lift you up in due time. Cast all your anxiety on him because he cares for you." 1 Peter 5:6-7

"Peace I leave with you; my peace I give you. I do not give to you as the world gives. Do not let your hearts be troubled and do not be afraid." John 14:27

"The righteous cry out and the Lord hears them; he delivers them from all their troubles. The Lord is close to the broken-hearted and saves those who are crushed in spirit. The righteous person may have many troubles, but the Lord delivers him from them all." Psalm 34:17-19

"But those who hope in the Lord will renew their strength. They will soar on the wings like eagles; they will run and not grow weary, they will walk and not be faint." Isaiah 40:31

"Be strong and courageous. Do not be afraid or terrified because of them, for the Lord your God goes with you; he will never leave you nor forsake you." Deuteronomy 31:6

"Surely the righteous will never be shaken; they will be remembered for ever. They will have no fear of bad news; their hearts are steadfast, trusting in the Lord. Their hearts are secure, they will have no fear; in the end they will look in triumph on their foes." Psalm 112:6-8

"For the Spirit God gave us does not make us timid, but gives us power, love and self-discipline." 2 Timothy 1:7

Remembering the Lord loves and cares for you.

"What, then, shall we say in response to these things? If God is for us, who can be against us? He who did not spare his own Son, but gave him up for us all — how will he not also, along with him, graciously give us all things?" Romans 8:31-32

"Trust in the Lord with all your heart and lean not on your own understanding; in all your ways submit to him, and he will make your paths straight." Proverbs 3:5-6

"And we know that in all things God works for the good of those who love Him, who have been called according to his purpose." Romans 8:28

"So do not fear, for I am with you; do not be dismayed, for I am your God. I will strengthen you and help you; I will uphold you with my righteous right hand." Isaiah 41:10

"But God demonstrates his own love for us in this: while we were still sinners, Christ died for us." Romans 5:8

"But you, Lord, are a compassionate and gracious God, slow to anger, abounding in love and faithfulness." Psalm 86:15

"For I am convinced that neither death nor life, neither angels nor demons, neither the present nor the future, nor any powers, neither height nor depth, nor anything else in creation, will be able to separate us from the love of God that is in Christ Jesus our Lord." Romans 8:38-39

Steve Wrote:Remembering the Lord loves and cares for you.

"What, then, shall we say in response to these things? If God is for us, who can be against us? He who did not spare his own Son, but gave him up for us all — how will he not also, along with him, graciously give us all things?" Romans 8:31-32

Wow a quote from a book written by goatherders and mistranslated repeatedly. I'm convinced.

Nah, on second thoughts I'm not convinced because...

Steve.

My arguments are just as (il)logical as yours, Steve.

(August 12, 2016 at 11:16 am)SteveII Wrote: You are still treating the question as if it was a lab experiment. You probably don't espouse scientism as your worldview so admit there are other methods than science of gaining knowledge. A person's self-reported intuition is one of those other methods.  A billion peoples self-reported intuition is even better.

It comes down to this, Steve: your "metaphysical" claims are either subject to scrutiny or not. If they aren't, then the discussion is over. It all comes down to faith. /thread. If you think that they are, and you enter what you believe to be "good evidence" for this claim into the discussion, then be prepared to have that evidence critiqued for quality in the same way we would critique any other worldly claim.

Quote:I don't know anything about the Mandela Effect.

Sure, and why bother looking it up, right? Afraid you'll learn something that might cast a different light on your dedication to personal testimony? Typical willful ignorance...

Quote:That was not the point. Since you obviously cannot claim science is the only source of knowledge you cannot claim something to be false simply because you can't examine it in a lab. Find another reason to say that God does not exist and/or people do not have relationships with God.

I'm sorry; did I stutter?

1. Never claimed "science is the only source of knowledge."

2. Never claimed "God is false because you can't study him in a lab." Also, I'm not sure what that means.

3. I am not providing you with reasons God doesn't exist.

YOU made a claim - 'God exists, and people experience a personal relationship with him.'

You provided what you think is "evidence" for your claim. I'm saying your evidence sucks; it's not evidence. I provided you with factual reasons why the evidence sucks. Therefore you have not adequately made a case for the claim.

Quote:That's not an argument against a specific belief. You need to provide a specific reason why a billion people's experience is false and not just say 'experiences can be false, therefore this one is false'. 

You are strawmanning the shit out of me. See above.

Quote:The NT contained actual events that happened in the natural world

THIS IS A CLAIM. NOT evidence. face palm*

I feel like I'm in the Twilight Zone.

Theist with its head in the sand has its head in the sand.

Steve.

Wow. Quoting from the bible to prove the bible. I will now quote from Harry Potter to prove Harry Potter.

“Mr. Moony presents his compliments to Professor Snape, and begs him to keep his abnormally large nose out of other people's business.
Mr. Prongs agrees with Mr. Moony, and would like to add that Professor Snape is an ugly git.
Mr. Padfoot would like to register his astonishment that an idiot like that ever became a professor.
Mr. Wormtail bids Professor Snape good day, and advises him to wash his hair, the slimeball.”

I think you're slowly converting me into some new religion Hammy, I'm just not sure what it is!

Proof that God is a turtle.