The real religion?

[Jesster]

And it's because we both are willing to believe that everything we 'know' about the way the world operates can be suspended on hearsay based on the say-so of clearly self-interested, alleged witnesses that we have both embraced the Good News of Apollonius of Tyana, right Steve? Right?!?

Or is this where you (a) indulge in special pleading or (b) an appeal to popularity.

Except the parts that are not hearsay, the parts that have no evidence of any theory about lying for self interest (oh, that would be all of it), and the parts that are eyewitness testimony (Peter, James, John, Luke reporting the testimony of eyewitnesses, and Paul spending time with and referring to eyewitnesses). You haven't mentioned the churches that pre-existed the NT docs...but I'm sure we can find a way to dismiss those pesky facts.  Yes, except for these exceptions you have an exceptional argument. 

Special pleading? Appeal to popularity? Don't have to. Got the evidence above.

A guy writing some shit that some other person told them is neither eyewitness testimony or proper evidence.

Fuck it. We've been here already. We're going in circles again and Steve's not listening.

[SteveII]

And it's because we both are willing to believe that everything we 'know' about the way the world operates can be suspended on hearsay based on the say-so of clearly self-interested, alleged witnesses that we have both embraced the Good News of Apollonius of Tyana, right Steve? Right?!?

Or is this where you (a) indulge in special pleading or (b) an appeal to popularity.

I'm quoting Crossless1, but this response is for Steve because I can't be arsed looking for the specific post quoted by Crossless1:

I don't know about anyone else, but I personally wouldn't say that the NT is not true because of its miracle claims. Rather, miracles are implausible, and the miracle claims made in the NT seem to serve a theological agenda, so that makes some parts of the NT suspect.

I think all of the NT miracles had a specific purpose. Some were big, purposeful (had context, taught lessons, proved a point), witnessed (many by large groups), and had theological significance (backed up Jesus' claim to be God, means of redemption).

[FatAndFaithless]

This is excruciating and exasperating...

[Jesster]

I'm quoting Crossless1, but this response is for Steve because I can't be arsed looking for the specific post quoted by Crossless1:

I don't know about anyone else, but I personally wouldn't say that the NT is not true because of its miracle claims. Rather, miracles are implausible, and the miracle claims made in the NT seem to serve a theological agenda, so that makes some parts of the NT suspect.

I think all of the NT miracles had a specific purpose. Some were big, purposeful (had context, taught lessons, proved a point), witnessed (many by large groups), and had theological significance (backed up Jesus' claim to be God, means of redemption).

"I think..."

Great. Opinion time.

[SteveII]

Peter, James, John, Luke said he spoke to eyewitnesses to write his 2 books. Paul claimed to know and discuss the events with eyewitnesses.

So you have stories -about- what the authors profess to be second hand eyewitness accounts....of what events?

You misunderstood. Peter, James, and John wrote epistles. They were eyewitness, NT writers. 7 books. They witnessed the entire 3 years of Jesus' ministry.

[The Grand Nudger]

I think all of the NT miracles had a specific purpose. Some were big, purposeful (had context, taught lessons, proved a point)

-hey!  You might be on to something here.  In that context, does it matter whether or not they happened?  The notion that they did is only a vehicle for a point..I would assume the point stands on it;s own regardless?

, witnessed (many by large groups)

You don't have any of these...you were given the opportunity to present some.

, and had theological significance (backed up Jesus' claim to be God, means of redemption).

This is is a redundant category with the first, all of the previous comments apply.

You misunderstood. Peter, James, and John wrote epistles. They were eyewitness, NT writers. 7 books. They witnessed the entire 3 years of Jesus' ministry.

Clearly I did, because I didn't think you would say something so idiotic as that a "Peter", "James", and "John" were time traveling journalists who reported on the jesus front.......this clarification further erodes your claim. I was looking for evidence to -support- it........

[purplepurpose]

My guess is that ultimately, Stevell, believes that Christianity leads to a perfect lifestyle of caring for others and respecting Creator. So, its easy for him to fill the gaps with lies and his strong faith in the name of "divine love".

[Crossless2.0]

I think all of the NT miracles had a specific purpose. Some were big, purposeful (had context, taught lessons, proved a point), witnessed (many by large groups), and had theological significance (backed up Jesus' claim to be God, means of redemption).

"I think..."

Great. Opinion time.

Why not? It's a game everyone can play.

I think narrators are able to fashion their materials in such a way as to convey lessons within various contexts, 'prove' points, and suggest theological significance. Of course, my opinion is actually grounded in what we know about human narrators. No credulity required.

[Jesster]

"I think..."

Great. Opinion time.

Why not? It's a game everyone can play.

I think narrators are able to fashion their materials in such a way as to convey lessons within various contexts, 'prove' points, and suggest theological significance. Of course, my opinion is actually grounded in what we know about human narrators. No credulity required.

Because today everyone is asking him for evidence. We already know what his opinion is.

[SteveII]

Reporting on supposed eyewitness accounts =/= eyewitness accounts...

I wrote my sentence poorly. Peter, James and John = eyewitnesses.

Luke was kind of a reporter who interviewed eyewitnesses for Luke and Acts.

Paul knew some of the apostles and referred to them (so not an eyewitness but confirmed his belief that the apostles and others were eyewitnesses).