Problem of good and evil for an atheist

[darkwolf176]

Killing Hitler would not have prevented the Second World War which was pretty much inevitable as a brought on by the growing economic and nationalistic factors of the time. In all likelihood another perhaps more successful leader would have risen to replace him (someone who would have made less mistakes and possibly won the second world war), his ideas where shared by many at the time.

[Minimalist]

Killing a baby, an innocent baby for any reason is evil. (please dont derail this thread with attacking the Bible)

We don't have to. You just did it for us. Thanks.

Slay utterly old [and] young, both maids, and little children, and women: but come not near any man upon whom [is] the mark; and begin at my sanctuary. Then they began at the ancient men which [were] before the house.

Ezekiel 9:6

This is not an "attack" on your bible. This is what is in your fucking bible. Apparently, baby killing is okay with god at times so it is outside of your assertion that killing one is "evil."

Now, by all means, let the apologetics flow like a river!

[Rev. Rye]

Killing Hitler would not have prevented the Second World War which was pretty much inevitable as a brought on by the growing economic and nationalistic factors of the time. In all likelihood another perhaps more successful leader would have risen to replace him (someone who would have made less mistakes and possibly won the second world war), his ideas where shared by many at the time.

And, from what I've read, it seems that Hitler himself was not directly responsible for the details of many of the atrocities his nation committed. According to Ian Kershaw, it seems that Hitler's main methods were to give vague instructions to his followers and have them hammer out the details, and he'd reward the one he'd like the most. For instance, he'd probably have said something like, "Heydrich and Himmler, try and figure out a way to take care of the Jews of Europe once and for all," and they'd come up with plans for concentration camps with built-in gas chambers and a crematorium that can handle up to 4000 bodies daily.

Oh, and while we're on the subject of Baby-killing and the Bible, here's Hosea 13:16 (Amplified Version)
Samaria shall bear her guilt and become desolate, for she rebelled against her God; they shall fall by the sword, their infants shall be dashed in pieces, and their pregnant women shall be ripped up.

Or Better yet, Psalm 137 (also Amplified):
1BY THE rivers of Babylon, there we [captives] sat down, yes, we wept when we [earnestly] remembered Zion [the city of our God imprinted on our hearts].
2On the willow trees in the midst of [Babylon] we hung our harps.
3For there they who led us captive required of us a song with words, and our tormentors and they who wasted us required of us mirth, saying, Sing us one of the songs of Zion.
4How shall we sing the Lord's song in a strange land?
5If I forget you, O Jerusalem, let my right hand forget its skill [with the harp].
6Let my tongue cleave to the roof of my mouth if I remember you not, if I prefer not Jerusalem above my chief joy!(A)
7Remember, O Lord, against the Edomites, that they said in the day of Jerusalem's fall, Down, down to the ground with her!
8O Daughter of Babylon [you devastator, you!], who [ought to be and] shall be destroyed, happy and blessed shall he be who requites you as you have served us.(B)
9Happy and blessed shall he be who takes and dashes your little ones against the rock!

[Minimalist]

Yep.

[Rhage]

See Min, we I make that point to the godbots, it makes them all huffy. Makes me laugh, but they sure do get huffy.

[Minimalist]

Their sky-daddy tells them to be huffy.

[TheDarkestOfAngels]

Whether you like it or not. There ARE things which are absolutely evil and things which are absolutely good.
I know most atheists atempt to discredit this idea (There is a huge problem if there is such thing).

Absolutes aren't. We abhor killing baby humans because they're babies of our species. Humans also trigger that emotion in things that remind us of babies, extending to the 'cuteness' of other species as well, including dogs, cats, apes, horses, and so forth.
But do you feel guilty for murdering baby ants? Baby spiders? Baby anything that isn't 'cute'?
Have you ever eaten veal? What about children that you've killed indirectly through purchasing goods from companies who severely damage the environment and becomes responsible for murdering vast tracks of wildlife and ruining the families of everyone whose livelyhood depends on there being a stable ecosystem? (You know, like BP, but there are plenty of other examples).

Since we are the only creature on this planet, who has the ability to do evil and good and not just to respond to external stimuli. This notion of good and evil had to come from somewhere.
Evolutionarily speaking why should I care if a child was killed in Africa?
There is no natural explanation for the concept of good and evil. So where did it come from?
I personally think it came from a cosmological battle between good and evil, although I cant conclude and prove that it, it explains things much better than anything else.

It came from us. It couldn't have come from anywhere else. Evolution isn't an outlook on life. It's not a system of morals or beliefs - it's a process by which life can diversify.

[Oldandeasilyconfused]

Whether you like it or not. There ARE things which are absolutely evil and things which are absolutely good

As an atheist, I have no opinion on morality or any other philosophical issue.

However,as a skeptic,secular humanist,egoist,materialist and moral relativist, I have a lot opinions. Many of them differ from your Judaeo-Christian world view..:

Although I have searched,I have so far been unable to find a single moral absolute. The Bible is replete with behaviour most declared Christians would find despicable.


I consider conscience to be the only arbiter of personal morality.IE: I recognise no external or transcendent moral authority. As far as I've ever been able to determine,societal morality is based on pragmatism and self interest.

There are many actions,which in context, I consider evil. There are no actions I consider evil in an absolute sense.

Perhaps counter intuitively to the unreflective, moral relativism is not a soft option.In fact in fact,it can be far more demanding than any dogmatic moral code.One needs to constantly question one's own motives and behaviour. It is also far more tolerant of others than any of the Abrahamic faiths.There is no personal certitude.Those CERTAIN of their moral stance scare the crap out of me.

Perhaps familiarise yourself with different notions of morality before insisting your view is the only right one.


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Moral relativism may be any of several descriptive, meta-ethical, or normative positions regarding the differences in moral or ethical judgments between different people and cultures:
Descriptive relativism is merely the positive or descriptive position that there exist, in fact, fundamental disagreements about the right course of action even when the same facts obtain and the same consequences seem likely to arise.[1]
Meta-ethical relativism, on the other hand, is the meta-ethical position that the truth or falsity of moral judgments, or their justification, is not objective or universal but instead relative to the traditions, convictions, or practices of a group of people.[2]
Normative relativism, further still, is the prescriptive or normative position that as there is no universal moral standard by which to judge others, we ought to tolerate the behavior of others even when it runs counter to our personal or cultural moral standards.[1]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Moral_relativism

[downbeatplumb]

Whether you like it or not. There ARE things which are absolutely evil and things which are absolutely good.
I know most atheists atempt to discredit this idea (There is a huge problem if there is such thing).

So what is one example of something absolutely evil?
Killing a baby, an innocent baby for any reason is evil. (please dont derail this thread with attacking the Bible)

If you think killing a baby is ever justified, I think it is safe to say, that you are sick and perveted.

Some cultures did practice killing babies, however, we would call them 'immoral'.

Since we are the only creature on this planet, who has the ability to do evil and good and not just to respond to external stimuli. This notion of good and evil had to come from somewhere.
Evolutionarily speaking why should I care if a child was killed in Africa?
There is no natural explanation for the concept of good and evil. So where did it come from?
I personally think it came from a cosmological battle between good and evil, although I cant conclude and prove that it, it explains things much better than anything else.

Zietgiest is the word that best describes morals.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zeitgeist

They are a moving target, what is unacceptable now was unacceptable in years gone by and vice versa.

I would much rather live in a society that lived by modern standards of morality than in a biblicaly based society.

[The Omnissiunt One]

Morality, if I can chip in with my view, is an ongoing debate within society about how to prioritise people's interests, which include their pre-existing moral beliefs. Some things we worked out ages ago; societies can't exist if everyone is allowed to rape, murder and steal on a whim. Other things vary wildly from culture to culture. Still, I believe that we can claim the existence of an objective moral standard (like, for instance, going against a person's wishes, unless not doing so goes against more people's wishes, is bad). This is not because of some supernatural command, but because of our compassion, our ability to reason and our need to decide what we can allow and what we can't.