Agnostics

[Excited Penguin]

A person who lacks belief in a God or Gods is an atheist. A God is a superhuman being or spirit worshiped as having power over nature or human fortunes; a deity.

Here are dictionary definitions. We have to agree on those before we get started, I agree. Benny, do you agree with these definitions or not? If you do, please answer the question, do you believe in any Gods? That is, do you think of anything in this world/universe as of a God and do you believe in it(do you believe it exists)? If you do, benny, that means you are a theist. If you don't, benny, that means you are an atheist.

[Edwardo Piet]

Only in respect to those definitions though.

[Excited Penguin]

Only in respect to those definitions though.

Can you think of any better definitions, or are you concerned that according to those he might be an atheist, but according to some lonely nutjob's he might not be?

[Edwardo Piet]

Well, I'm not sure. I think ignostics often think that terms such as "supernatural deity" aren't clear and neither is "creator of the universe". Like, what is "supernatural" and how could it be distinguished from this being an alternative reality created by some super advanced alien or something? You'll have to ask an ignostic, I'm not an ignostic.

[Excited Penguin]

Well, I'm not sure. I think ignostics often think that terms such as "supernatural deity" aren't clear and neither is "creator of the universe". Like, what is "supernatural" and how could it be distinguished from this being an alternative reality created by some super advanced alien or something? You'll have to ask an ignostic, I'm not an ignostic.

Once again, Evie, if I and everyone else were to act like that everytime they get asked a question, discussion will die worldwide.

Do you see a way out of this, or are you going to admit there comes a point where you have to admit the other person is simply dishonest and doesn't want to answer the question?

[Edwardo Piet]

Ignosticism makes sense to ignostics though. So it doesn't make them dishonest because it doesn't make sense to you.

[Excited Penguin]

Ignosticism makes sense to ignostics though. So it doesn't make them dishonest because it doesn't make sense to you.

Ignosticism makes perfect sense to me, it's just not something that can preclude one from answering whether they are atheist or theist. Ignosticism is actually a subset of atheism, if you will, and if I'm not wrong(if I'm wrong, anyone is welcome to challenge me on this point). What makes one dishonest is evading to answer a question even when it is clearly defined, e.g. Are you a person who thinks of something as of a God and believes it exists?

[Edwardo Piet]

Ignostics believe gods are undefinable though. Another name for ignosticism is theological noncognitvism.

[Excited Penguin]

Ignostics believe gods are undefinable though. Another name for ignosticism is theological noncognitvism.

If gods are undefinable, then there is no belief to be had in them. There is a lack of belief there. There is atheism. Ignostics are atheists, just as new born babies are atheists for failing to believe in Gods because they don't yet understand the concept.


This is why I call you people dishonest. Every one of you would agree and would say that we are all born atheists. And yet you give this all up and contradict yourselves just to defend a fallacious position. Why is that? Do you hate me so much you have to disagree with everything I say on principle and take the side of everyone else but me in a debate?

[Excited Penguin]

We have to standardize our use of language, this is a worthy goal. Having different people use different definitions for no good reason( no scientifically good reason) is bad.