Agnostics

[Whateverist]

Gee I don't like that way of putting it.

It is put clearly.  Maybe we just don't agree.   

"Don't believe one way or the other" sounds more like a garden variety agnostic to me.

If we use what I call the old system (oldsys), then we have these definitions:

• Theists believe that gods do exist.
  
• Atheists believe that gods do not exist.
  
• Agnostics don't believe either way.
  

The problem with oldsys is that it also uses these definitions:

• Gnostics know (or think they know) whether gods exist.
  
• Agnostics don't know whether gods exist.  
  

So "agnostic" defines two different situations, which causes endless confusion.  

Newsys doesn't have that problem, so newsys is more clean and clear.  

Oldsys can probably claim more users.  Newsys is overwhelmingly more popular among people who identify as atheists.  

Both oldsys and newsys are normalized databases:  Everybody fits in a category; nobody fits in more than one category.  

There are other systems, of course, but these are the two main ones.  Both are supported by dictionaries and common usage.  That is, both are "right" or "true" insofar as any definition can be.  

Other systems can be disregarded as personal or eccentric.  Whatever is in third place behind the two main systems is way out of sight back there. 

If you're going to have your own system, it would be good of you to use new terms.  If you use "agnostic" to refer to weak atheists, people will assume that you are using oldsys.  If you use "weak atheist" (or its equivalent, "soft atheist) at all, people will assume you are using newsys.  

[/quote]


My objection is that as a weak atheist I too answer "no I do not believe in any gods".  I'm pretty sure my certainty is as strong as any gnostic atheist or anti-theist, so percents do not enter into it.  I claim the weak atheist position because I have nothing convincing to say to anyone inclined to believe gods do exist. Convincing for me, yes, but generally convincing to all?  Obviously not.

[wiploc]

Weak atheism covers people who don't know what to believe;

[humor]
To me, that sounds like the definition of a Christian.   If they knew what to believe, they wouldn't believe that.  
[/humor]

that's what I should have said. But it's defined as people who answer "no" to both the questions, "Do you believe in gods" and "Do you believe there are no gods".

[nitpick]
A weak atheist is anyone who neither believes that gods do exist nor believes that gods do not exist.  

A weak atheist is anyone who is neither a theist nor a strong atheist.  

It doesn't matter what you say.  Atheist Popes don't answer "no" to "Do you believe in gods?" but they are still atheists.   
[/nitpick]

Apologies for any upset or confusion.

No problem! 

[Edited this a bunch of times.]

I know how that feels. 
[/quote]

[wiploc]

Whateverist wrote:
My objection is that as a weak atheist I too answer "no I do not believe in any gods".

No atheist believes gods exist, so that doesn't doesn't distinguish weak from strong.  

 I'm pretty sure my certainty is as strong as any gnostic atheist or anti-theist, so percents do not enter into it.

I'm totally with you.  

 I claim the weak atheist position because I have nothing convincing to say to anyone inclined to believe gods do exist. Convincing for me, yes, but generally convincing to all?  Obviously not.

Am I understanding that you are a strong atheist (one who believes that gods do not exist) but you style yourself as a weak atheist (one who doesn't believe either way) in order to avoid arguments?  If so, why don't you just call yourself an "atheist" and let it go at that?  If someone presses you for specifics, you then use polite evasion:

• I'm not in a position to answer that.
  
• Let's talk about something more fun and less controversial, like whether Trump is actually crazy or just pretending to be crazy.
  
• Some questions don't get answers. 
  
• I don't feel very articulate on that topic.  But if you tell me how you rationalize your position, maybe I'll learn something.
  
• I could tell you, but then I'd have to kill you. 
  
• Actually, I don't like to talk religion when I'm not on my meds.
  
• People who make claims have the burden of proof to defend those claims.  So, sorry, I'm not going to make a claim.   
  
• They tell me that I can avoid arguments by not discussing politics or religion.  What will HBO do when Game of Thrones is over? 
  
• My religion is embarrassingly stupid, so I don't like to talk about it.  Maybe you could tell me about yours?  
  

[robvalue]

I don't understand your objections Wiploc, sorry.

Edit, wait: now I get it, at least the second part. You're making the distinction between what someone believes and what they profess to believe. You are indeed correct. Someone who answers "no" to both questions is professing to be a weak atheist. They may actually not be.

As to the first part, if someone doesn't know what to believe, I'd imagine that means they have no firm beliefs either way. I'm not sure what else you think it could mean. They have no firm belief that there is or isn't gods. If they mean something else, then I don't know what it is. I made the distinction between this and someone who actually doesn't know what they believe; as in they don't have access to their own beliefs. To me, "I don't know what to believe" is a way of not directly saying "no" to the God belief question, for fear of it being misinterpreted as strong atheism right away. Which lets face it, a lot of people do. I would clarify this with any individual.

Of course, they could be lying. They may actually believe in God just fine, or be a strong atheist.

[robvalue]

One more thought: "I don't know what to believe" or even "I don't know what I believe" could be ignostic answers. If I don't understand the question, I can't have meaningful beliefs about it. I don't know what my beliefs would be, if I understood it. I can only speculate.

[wiploc]

I don't understand your objections Wiploc, sorry.

Edit, wait: now I get it, at least the second part. You're making the distinction between what someone believes and what they profess to believe. You are indeed correct. Someone who answers "no" to both questions is professing to be a weak atheist. They may actually not be.

Bingo!

As to the first part, if someone doesn't know what to believe, I'd imagine that means they have no firm beliefs either way. I'm not sure what else you think it could mean.

Note the [humor] tags.  I was making (or trying to make) a joke.  

I'm a strong atheist, so I disagree with theists:  I think they believe the wrong thing.  If they believed the right thing, they would agree with me.  Therefore, if they think theism is the right thing to believe, then they don't know what is the right thing to believe.  Therefore, they don't know what to believe.  

A joke isn't funny if you explain it.  This one, apparently, wasn't funny even before it was explained.  



[/quote]

[robvalue]

Oh, my bad! What a doofus. That'll teach me to reply during the night when my brain is even less functional than normal. I saw the tags originally but then later forgot they were there.

Way to trip over and flatten the joke Rob!

[Whateverist]

Whateverist wrote:

 I claim the weak atheist position because I have nothing convincing to say to anyone inclined to believe gods do exist. Convincing for me, yes, but generally convincing to all?  Obviously not.

Am I understanding that you are a strong atheist (one who believes that gods do not exist) but you style yourself as a weak atheist (one who doesn't believe either way) in order to avoid arguments? 

We're really not connecting on this, are we? I've no more idea what you're on about than you have regarding what I think where 'gods' are concerned. Can't say we didn't try, hey?

[wiploc]

Am I understanding that you are a strong atheist (one who believes that gods do not exist) but you style yourself as a weak atheist (one who doesn't believe either way) in order to avoid arguments? 

We're really not connecting on this, are we?

I guess not.

I've no more idea what you're on about than you have regarding what I think where 'gods' are concerned.  Can't say we didn't try, hey?

We gave it a fair effort, yes.