Suffering

[The Omnissiunt One]

@Godschild - God

So you believe that we should fear God? That sounds surprisingly conservative for you.

@The OO- I am responsible for my own desires and animalistic instincts, all of them. You shouldn't feel guilty, you're in a boat with a lot of people. IF however you have the instinct to protect those hurt, inaction is the same as refusing to act. You aren't responsible because you feel a certain way, I agree. You are however responsible for every action (and inaction) based on those instincts and feelings. I also disagree that humans as a whole are inclined to hurt others.

Even if people are responsible for what they do based on their desires, God is still responsible for those desires' existence in the first place. Humans are capable of overriding these violent inclinations, I agree, and most of the time we do, but the veneer of civilisation is very thin, as a visit to a football (soccer) match will quickly tell you.

Why does he allow volcanoes to erupt? Aren't they necessary for techtonic shifts? I'm no geologist.. subduction or something

Yes, but he could have made it so that they weren't. Defending an omnipotent being on grounds of necessity is nonsensical.

Why did he choose to create us through evolution, if it causes so much suffering? That's a valid point. Death causes suffering though too.. I guess if he didn't create suffering or the option to suffer we'd all be angels. To answer your question.. he already did that. MAybe our ability to learn and adapt has a goal that could surpass ignorant bliss of subserviance, idk?

Maybe it does. Until, though, a plausible reason for his allowing suffering is offered, which is more plausible than his non-existence, then I feel justified in my atheism.

[Captain Scarlet]

That's OK tackattack, if this child wants to be unreasonable then that's the way it will be. Things like that don't bother me with God on my side who do I have to fear.

Oh dear Godschild its got so bad you've resorted to personal attacks and invective. Ad hominem is a fallacy as Im sure you're aware. It is not I that constructed the arguments that have tied you in a knot and that you still fail to address. You said:

"God allowed him to do this because He wants all created beings to love Him with out being forced in any way (what kind of love would love be if forced, I say it's no love at all) then He allowed Adam and Eve to make the same choice. Freewill is one of the greatest gifts given to us by God".

I challenged that (@tack this is the challenged referred too). I have made the challenge twice now. So for the third time. Your omnipotent god says (part of the only bit of the bible he authored directly (onto stone) according to your tradition):

"You shall have no other gods before me.....
...You shall not bow down to them or worship them; for I the Lord your God am a jealous God, punishing children for the iniquity of parents, to the third and fourth generation of those who reject me"

If you have a being saying that to you, and that being can do anything, he is not allowing you to exercise your will freely. He is putting the pressure on you by pain of punishment, and not only to you but to your descendents. It gets worse in the new testament when we find that punishment is infact torture forever. It makes the the mafia look like a kiddies play group and I am sure you would'nt argue that they let you exercise your will freely.

Please sir can you answer that?

[tackattack]

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@Godschild - God

So you believe that we should fear God? That sounds surprisingly conservative for you.

@The OO- I am responsible for my own desires and animalistic instincts, all of them. You shouldn't feel guilty, you're in a boat with a lot of people. IF however you have the instinct to protect those hurt, inaction is the same as refusing to act. You aren't responsible because you feel a certain way, I agree. You are however responsible for every action (and inaction) based on those instincts and feelings. I also disagree that humans as a whole are inclined to hurt others.

Even if people are responsible for what they do based on their desires, God is still responsible for those desires' existence in the first place. Humans are capable of overriding these violent inclinations, I agree, and most of the time we do, but the veneer of civilisation is very thin, as a visit to a football (soccer) match will quickly tell you.

Why does he allow volcanoes to erupt? Aren't they necessary for techtonic shifts? I'm no geologist.. subduction or something

Yes, but he could have made it so that they weren't. Defending an omnipotent being on grounds of necessity is nonsensical.

Why did he choose to create us through evolution, if it causes so much suffering? That's a valid point. Death causes suffering though too.. I guess if he didn't create suffering or the option to suffer we'd all be angels. To answer your question.. he already did that. MAybe our ability to learn and adapt has a goal that could surpass ignorant bliss of subserviance, idk?

Maybe it does. Until, though, a plausible reason for his allowing suffering is offered, which is more plausible than his non-existence, then I feel justified in my atheism.

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1- lol no it was a joke, no one should live in fear.. I know it's a rare occasion for me to joke around, I will caveat that by saying if there's anything to fear it would be God.
2-Yes he is responsible for creating those natures. From my perspective, God kicked off the universe and started things evolving with natural obstacles and humans developed from that. Then at some point very primitive man to the natural trait granted by God, namely discernment and curiosity, and and God granted us the "knowledge of good and evil" morality if you will. Prior to that it was all necessity and strongest survive and small communities. I think society prior to morality kind of topped off. There was a hierarchy but we wanted more so we looked outside ourselves and saw God and our fellow man. I'm off topic, but I think that ability to overcome our primal nature is part of developing into God's creations as he intended. Once all of the obstacles in society are overcome what will we aspire to... bettering ourselves and overcoming that nature. I agree that religion in it's current state is more of a hindrance than a benefit and to survive our understanding of it will have to change drastically.
3-I think he did crate planets that don't have volcanoes.. once again I don't know. They however are not conclusive to life I'm sure as their core makeup is probably vastly different than ours. I'd really rather not make vague assertions about geological necessity in nature and philosophical reasons behind such.
4-And that's great. I'm glad you took the time to see my perspective and I thank you for sharing yours.


PS apologize for all the typos.. no time to edit right now.

[Godscreated]

@Godschild - God

Yes in the way of respect.

[RachelSkates]

I am confused. Why ought we fear god? If he is there, he is harmless.

[Godscreated]

I am confused. Why ought we fear god? If he is there, he is harmless.

He is there and He is not(loss for better word) harmless but not in he way most on this forum believe.
Hope that makes sense.

[Captain Scarlet]

I am confused. Why ought we fear god? If he is there, he is harmless.

He is there and He is not(loss for better word) harmless but not in he way most on this forum believe.
Hope that makes sense.

How do you know? Its so infrequently that one has the chance to converse with someone who knows the mind of god? Unless of course you don't and your making it all up!

[Entropist]

I am confused. Why ought we fear god? If he is there, he is harmless.

[tackattack]

Ok and that's why I don't make jokes.. never again I say! RachelSkates, I was being facetious. Fearing God is not incommon among all sects of Christianity so from one theist to another it was a joke.

[RachelSkates]

Eeek. Tack: If you look like your avatar, you do not look like the joking type at all! You look rather stern. Forgive me for not noticing the grin behind the severe gaze.

The Dore prints are very beautiful, Entropist. Wacked beyond belief but beautiful.

I like his secular works better........his Rhyme of the Ancient Mariner? Now that's awesome.

Thanks for post.